“Karen” is a misogynist term.

[Bleuuuughhh]

i just would like to get an idea of how other women feel about this term.

It seems deeply unfair there is no equivalent term for badly behaved men. In my eyes, the phase appears to be a new insult to add the huge list women have had add to put up with through the ages.

Women being sexually active is now more acceptable so the terms “Jezebel”, “slag” are not used as widely. Similarly there is an aging population “crone” and “witch” aren’t acceptable . Now a woman who complains, or doesn’t tow the party time is called a “Karen”.

Has anything really actually changed at all?

Not only on Mumsnet (or to be honest, not on Mumsnet at all but yes in real life – I don’t think I’ve ever seen it used pejoratively on MN, only in discussion like here). I see Karen used all the time online – on threads or posts where a woman who is not in her 20s has an opinion about something (usually where something is ‘not right’ – where she expresses an opinion is that x behaviour isn’t ok). It’s just used to ridicule and shut people down. I can’t remember ever seeing it used in the context of racism. Once it’s been said any objection or further attempt at discussion is just met with ‘Alright Karen’.

If it was all about shutting down racists and microaggressions, fine (and I totally get the power of labelling something and diffusing its force). But this is not how the term is generally used or understood by the population at large.

I said I would leave this thread alone, but it came up on active and I just couldn’t ignore it.

I think one of the main problems with the co-opting of this word for its current use is now when a white woman is called out for the kinds of racist behaviours discussed upthread, there is no way of defining said racism that will make her reflect. Saying someone is being “racist” really would not be enough in those situations. Most women on this thread are white women so I don’t expect you to understand the nuances of racism - people, particularly older, middle class white women who think they are really forward thinking and liberal, often don’t acknowledge when they are the ones perpetuating this type of racism.

Here’s one example. If I am having a discussion about something with a white woman and she starts accusing me of being “aggressive” despite me just speaking as a black woman, and she reports me to someone, I really won’t have a leg to stand on. I can’t say “Stop being racist” as the response would be “How am I racist? Don’t play the race card.” Even worse if she cries. I don’t care for the term “Karen”, but can see how it’s far more useful than “racist” in this scenario because it aptly describes the behaviours.

As @BibbleandSqwauk said, contexts change (although I’m not so sure about the example given. But that’s another conversation for another thread.) But now with the changing of the context for this word, we’re now left with nothing to describe such behaviours and they are free to run wild again.

I understand the argument in relation to the stupid memes etc., but when it comes to the conversation about its original use (yes, it was its original, regardless of when mainstream newspapers or the world outside of the black community picked up on it), I find it worrying that white women are more concerned with the word (“just call it racism” - that doesn’t work) than the actual behaviours. It’s actually quite ironic that when all of these examples and explanations of white women’s unique racism are given, the white women are still the victims.

How is the original usage in 2020 when the other usages started in 2018? You’re just plain wrong.

Also, memes may be stupid, but Karen IS a meme. It’s nothing OTHER than a meme. You can’t say, well the meme usage of Karen may be sexist, but the racist usage is the main usage. No, Karen is a meme. The meme usage IS how it’s used and understood.

I don’t care for the term “Karen”, but can see how it’s far more useful than “racist” in this scenario because it aptly describes the behaviours.

But why is “Karen” more useful? Why was it ever?

The woman who perceives you as aggressive isn’t going to respond to what she will most likely see as a slur in a reflective way.

If you tell me that you’ve just been Karened I’m not going to be at all sympathetic.

If you tell me some woman has been rude to you because she thought you were being aggressive because you were being “assertive while Black” I’m going to be a) enlightened about your experience and b) pretty hacked off on your behalf.

I find it worrying that white women are more concerned with the word (“just call it racism” - that doesn’t work)

Specifically on this, the word is no longer about racism. That’s the point. It’s being used as an ageist misogynistic put down. I am concerned about racism - especially racism as experience by Black women, which is a whole other thread (indeed discussion board) - and I am also concerned about ageism and misogyny. It’s not one thing or the other.

For many people it is still used to openly recognise a particular type of racist behaviour this is how I hear it used

so black and I hear Asian people use it too are to change terminology because a term has been taken on that is now used to upset SOME middle aged white women

right ….

I’m not sure if I feel I should be telling anyone what language they should use when acknowledging racist behaviour maybe because while I don’t have it directed at me personally my dad does my family does and I see how harmful and how damaging it can be that is more of an issue imo

Here’s one example. If I am having a discussion about something with a white woman and she starts accusing me of being “aggressive” despite me just speaking as a black woman, and she reports me to someone, I really won’t have a leg to stand on. I can’t say “Stop being racist” as the response would be “How am I racist? Don’t play the race card.” Even worse if she cries. I don’t care for the term “Karen”, but can see how it’s far more useful than “racist” in this scenario because it aptly describes the behaviours.

I appreciate this point of view, but I'm still a little confused how calling someone Karen is going to be any more effective if as you say, they have no insight into their own racism. Is "karen" working?- has it eliminated or reduced racism? has it caused white racist women to examine their attitudes? Do they even know what the term even means and its context as a vehicle to highlight racist attitudes from white women? I really dont think it has. I think all it has done is taint the name Karen and turned it into a stupid internet meme with a specific haircut. It hasnt achieved what it set out to do so why keep using it if its not working AND its been adopted as a way of shutting older women down in a misogynistic manner.

I think the example of underhand racism is helpful, because those of us who don't experience racism will definitely be all too familiar with underhand/ dogwhistle sexism. It's a tone of voice, a shared eyeroll, an innocent word used in a certain way. Hopeless to pin down and prove.

I don't want to suggest that this type of racism doesn't exist, or to downplay it's harms (although I suspect that men are as guilty of it and possibly more so).

I can't police private conversations and it would be weird to want to, so if groups use the language that suits them then it's none of my beeswax. God knows my WhatsApps aren't fit for sharing outside my groups.

It only becomes any kind of issue when the language is used publicly or online, where That Word will jump right out, as it's a woman's name, and associated with a terrible haircut etc etc etc. It causes immediate defensiveness and it always will. I mean, come on. It's my actual name.

If someone accused me of being racist I would be absolutely horrified, and would think long and hard about why what I had said/done had made me be perceived as such

If someone called me a Karen, I'd roll my eyes and think/say fuck off. That person is not worth my time or energy.

@mangochops

has it caused white racist women to examine their attitudes?

It has at the very least allowed others to notice and begin to understand the types of behaviours they are witnessing. If I had just said “she’s being racist” other (white) people would be more apprehensive to understand my point of view.

The word “racist” scares white people - no one wants to be associated with accusing someone of it. Since there has been a word for this type of underhand racism (further back than 2020 or even 2018, as another poster suggested), other people began to see the behaviours for what they are. They could see that while this (hypothetical) woman might not be being blatantly racist, she is weaponising her whiteness against me - which I’m sure we all now know is what “Karen” means in its original sense. They wouldn’t have seen that otherwise.

As I have said numerous times on this thread, I really don’t care what someone calls this type of racism, but it does need a name, whether white women want it to have one or not. My issue with “Karen” being reduced to a “misogynistic term” is that you are ignoring the history of the word and essentially calling any black (or other “person of colour” - another term I’m not really down for, but I digress) person who has used it for that purpose a misogynist (again, do I need to quote Sojourner Truth?) In doing this, you ignore the behaviours perpetuated on one side and experienced on the other.

it’s not up to white people to decide what language is used for people to openly acknowledge racism if you take it on board or not is down to you it’s not up to others to correct your behaviour or make you reflect on your behaviour that is for you to decide

i don’t allow men to dictate to me what language I use to recognise sexism. Maybe I should maybe this why some men have thought o was too much of a feminist 🙄

This 100% 👆

I think the thread wasn’t started with reference to this use – it’s about when it’s just used to mean ‘middle aged woman expressing an opinion’.

If someone being covertly racist gets called Karen, I don’t really care – the more important thing is that their behaviour is identified and called out.

But when it’s just being used to shut down a woman being assertive or expressing an opinion, then yeah, it’s just bog standard misogyny. That’s the use I see most often and I think likewise it’s good to identify it as such and challenge that.

I think it’s a shame that we can’t call out behaviour without using derogatory labelling. I’d rather clearly say what the issue is than call someone a name that has now been bastardised to the point it is now meaningless in comparison to its original context.

I don’t think it’s around what white people “decide” to use to call out racism, it is because social media has reduced the name of Karen to a meme that many people now associate with an entitled middle aged white woman and is used to shut women down, who actually may be saying something important (I admit they also may be talking shit and being entitled/bigoted etc). But with the meme crazy society we are, the term Karen, like many things, to many people, means something completely different to its original context. However, if you told someone that what they were saying was racist, then there is only one thing that that means and that person can be educated rather than calling them a Karen and them misunderstanding the term and not being educated.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that it ISN'T connected with racist attitudes in some contexts but equally, I don't think people are "minimising" it by saying it's a mysoginistic term. Can't it be both? It absolutely, most definitely IS used by many, especially young men / teens in the mysoginistic meaning. I am in the demographic that it is aimed at in that context so that is what I notice and am most aware of. As a white person I feel deeply unqualified to comment on most aspects of racism.

Why is this language used for racism aimed only at women though? Where's the male equivalent? Are men not racist? It's so sexist it's not worth entertaining.

Anyway it's a moot point because the word has got nothing to do with racism in the UK. It just means shut up woman.

Schrodinger's Social Media Users - they know the term Karen (which came from social media and they argue they know when it originated despite tonnes of evidence showing they have retconned those origins) but simultaneously they haven't actually seen it used on social media (because it is used by misogynists to attack all women with opinions from all races - X/Twitter is full of white men using it to attack black women who have 'opinions' - it's their new version of 'uppity'; it's used to attack GRT women calling to be treated equally by the law; it's used to attack Muslim women saying they don't want strippers/drag queens performing for DCs, etc, etc).
But Schrodinger's Social Media Users are not going to change their mind because they are not interested in evidence. There is clear evidence of when and where Karen originated; a two second search of X/Twitter or even Google shows it's used to try to silence women with opinions; and there is even academic, linguistic research that proves it's a term used against all women eg 'online users labeling angry women of any race, age, or background' (University of Colorado, 2023).

@DoktorPeppa

the word has got nothing to do with racism in the UK.

With all due respect, I and other black women from the U.K. have spent most of this thread trying to explain how it is to do with racism in the U.K., so for you to say this is just exasperating at the least.

I think the thing a lot of white people in the U.K. don’t understand about the black British experience is, while a lot of the language we use to describe certain things may come from the US where racism is more overt and therefore more likely to be named, that doesn’t mean our experiences of it are any different in the U.K. The black British experience is more closely intertwined with the black American experience than the wider British life and culture is with the wider American life and culture. Please don’t tell us it has nothing to do with racism the U.K.

If “Karen” is so useful for calling out underhand racism, why is it a label that can only be used to slap down white middle aged women? Are we really the only section of society who offends in this way? Racism is wrong, it is generalising about people on the basis of a characteristic and belittling them accordingly. Is using “Karen” not similar behaviour? If not, why?

So if a white woman is called a Karen by a white man for daring to have a voice about something (that has nothing to do with race) this is somehow linked to racism?

Every single time I've seen Karen used on social media there was no racial element to it whatsoever, it was simply to shut up a woman. I firmly maintain that the current usage of Karen in the UK is not related to race.

Just want to say that most of the ‘Karen’ usage I see is in the plain old misogynistic sense with nothing deeper behind it, however I totally accept what you’re saying about how it’s used by some to call out racism, that there 100% is racism in the UK (laughable to argue otherwise) and having a shorthand term to identify a certain type of behaviour, person or attitude is really powerful and helps break down and challenge that behaviour. (Similar to how identifying behaviours like mansplaining, for eg, is such a relief and labelling it helps to de-normalise and de-legitamise it).

@DoktorPeppa I agree with you until your last sentence. It CAN have something to do with race in SOME usages, but not all. Why is it an absolute?

I'm a white woman in my 50s in a large multicultural city. It is my observation that most people my age and younger aren't racist. Many older people definitely are and I put it down to sheer ignorance. I think maybe plenty of people from the generation before mine is definitely more ignorant, prejudiced, and small minded. Maybe they were raised with ideas of Britishness or values that hark to colonialisation (the powerful british empire going around the world 'civilising' other countries type thing). Maybe the vast majority of people they've ever been close with in their lives are other white british people? I don't think that's the case for younger generations? I could be totally wrong but that would put them in the Karen and Gammon bracket?

I go to an adult education college and some privileged white older ladies attend one of the classes I do. They're so effing rude and love nothing more than to 'correct' and 'dispute' other people. They're high conflict and disharmonious. They do it to me, they do it to everyone because they're actually bullies in general. But I can totally see if they did it to a person of colour, they'd easily be not just bullying but racist.

@MinnieL What planet are you living on?

The same one as you, but whilst you may consider me to be a bit optimistic, I shouldn’t be called out for wanting people to do better…