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OP posts:
GrittyTunnocks · 05/11/2023 07:14

ah. I know who you are now. All makes sense.

capabilityfrowns · 06/11/2023 01:17

Good . Aren't you clever!

I didn't pay into the fund raiser . I just remained impartial and read the findings .

zarrow · 09/11/2023 12:40

Yea, forgot

zarrow · 09/11/2023 12:41

It's nearly 300 thousand grand noq

zarrow · 09/11/2023 12:43

Royal Mail staff can smell cannabis it seems, lol.

zarrow · 09/11/2023 12:45

I am white and was stopped quite a few times back in the 80's.

zarrow · 09/11/2023 12:46

I think the Police have a pretty good idea who they should target, it isn't rocket science .

Resilience · 09/11/2023 14:24

This whole thing really worries me. I'm an ex officer.

I don't actually have a problem with the officers stopping Ricardo Dos Santos. Driving at 32mph in a 20 is a good reason for that. But it goes horribly wrong after that. I've stopped more cars than I care to remember, been assaulted plenty of times, and been scared for my safety on several occasions, but I think the level of aggression displayed by the officer who went to the driver's side door was excessive and set the tone for everything that followed. It's simple Bettari's box.

I'm not afraid to admit to and call our poor behaviour on the part of police. And I think the police have to do that before the public can be expected to change because as a public sector organisation funded by the public they have to be the one to make the first move and lead that change.

But as a former officer I also think the police can't do right for doing wrong. Decades of being run down by successive governments because it suited their ideology and allowed them to reduce public sector pay, years of being asked to do more with fewer officers (despite the uplift there are way less officers per head of population than before), gradual encroachment into areas that have nothing to do with the police and take away from core policing responsibilities have all contributed to this mess. We have a situation where local police consistently let down victims of crime because they spend most of their time picking up the pieces of an equally damaged NHS and social care system. Most police attention is gobbled up by a small proportion of incredibly demanding individuals, a surprisingly high proportion of whom aren't criminals at all but are very vulnerable. But it makes the police largely invisible to the rest of the population except for cases such as this (where they sometimes get it badly wrong). As a result the police no longer have a relationship with the local population. It's massively eroded the principle of policing by consent.

Police are human. No one joins to be popular and you do so with the knowledge that there will be times when you are in physical danger. However, I rarely felt that people were out to get me. A lot of police officers do feel that way now and worry that if they were attacked the crowds would be more likely to join in or film it rather than help them. This means they are constantly on the defensive and it doesn't have a positive outcome in most cases.

I genuinely believe my career was easier in some ways because I'm a fairly slightly built female. I don't look physically imposing, even in uniform. Like most cops I've learned how to project authority when I need to and I was physically quite capable of handling myself too, but my starting point was always communication because I didn't want to fight. My kit gave me an advantage but I'd prefer to avoid it as you've already lost control if it reaches that stage. Because we live in a society which is still quite sexist really, this worked for me really well. I had many a burly criminal with a long arrest record for assaulting police be very well behaved with me. I wouldn't necessarily expect it to go the same way with a male colleague, where patience can sometimes be interpreted as weakness, but a renewed focus on the ability to communicate with people is in my view one of the main ways out of the current mess.

The trouble is that the police need to feel confident to do that and I don't think a lot do. In my old force (not met) you'd spend 80% of your time single crewed. If that made you anxious and feeling under threat (which it does for many) there are negative coping strategies some officers learn - puffing yourself up to look more imposing and head off the threat, trying to dominate the situation, only going for the easy wins, etc. The trouble is you don't unlearn them on the rare occasions you're double crewed or out in a group and the combined effect is horribly authoritarian. It's really damaging.

I haven't read the hearing findings like @capabilityfrowns . I'd be surprised if all the officers who have donated to the fund have to be honest. I think what we're seeing is police officers using this fund to voice their collective discontent with police leadership and the government. The police never get a slap on the back for a job well done, no one promotes the good work they do. All that ever makes it into the press are the cases of misconduct. There are structural processes that force good officers into making poor decisions or not doing something properly and leave them open to misconduct allegations and yet they have no choice but to keep doing that in full knowledge that if it goes wrong they'll be hung out to dry. They're not allowed to strike or join a union. They have the federation but it has no teeth whatsoever. There's no other outlet for them to be heard. It's misplaced but this go fund me has become an outlet for all that anger, anxiety and disillusionment.

I don't know what the answer is. I think policing is in real trouble if I'm honest and I'm glad I'm no longer in it. I think the solution requires money to fix, too, which no one wants to spend on the police because they're a bunch of "racist, misogynist, homophobic idiots".

I'd start with a way more robust recruitment process. But if you want the right calibre of applicants you have to make policing an attractive occupation. At the moment, it's more denigrated than revered, so we need a PR campaign to balance the cases of wrongdoing with the multitude of occasions someone has had their life saved, or a dangerous offender is prosecuted, for example. If we only feed misconduct to the press can we be surprised if public confidence hits an all-time low? It encourages people to be wary of the police and encourages the fear and hostility on both sides.

Much, much more training on communication.

Targets set for positive engagement - instead of go out and stop search, go out and strike up a random conversation with a member of the public, for no reason other than because. It builds trust. Won't happen though because most cops are too busy being despatched to jobs to be actively patrolling these days. Stop search is increasingly rare on frontline teams.

Existing officers need to be double crewed. Evidence shows they make better decisions, investigate more thoroughly and quickly and morale is boosted.

BWV on at all incidents. Has a huge cost implication because of digital storage though.

SausageAndEggSandwich · 09/11/2023 16:08

@Resilience

Thank you - that's a really interesting and knowledgeable post and it does make a lot of sense.

Particularly the vulnerability you feel as an officer alone & the tactics people develop to help themselves as a result which are not useful in all situations.

Definitely given me some food for thought on how this fundraiser is being perceived.

capabilityfrowns · 09/11/2023 16:56

🙏👏👏👏👏

Very well said rescilience

GoodnightGentlemen · 09/11/2023 17:15

Resilience · 09/11/2023 14:24

This whole thing really worries me. I'm an ex officer.

I don't actually have a problem with the officers stopping Ricardo Dos Santos. Driving at 32mph in a 20 is a good reason for that. But it goes horribly wrong after that. I've stopped more cars than I care to remember, been assaulted plenty of times, and been scared for my safety on several occasions, but I think the level of aggression displayed by the officer who went to the driver's side door was excessive and set the tone for everything that followed. It's simple Bettari's box.

I'm not afraid to admit to and call our poor behaviour on the part of police. And I think the police have to do that before the public can be expected to change because as a public sector organisation funded by the public they have to be the one to make the first move and lead that change.

But as a former officer I also think the police can't do right for doing wrong. Decades of being run down by successive governments because it suited their ideology and allowed them to reduce public sector pay, years of being asked to do more with fewer officers (despite the uplift there are way less officers per head of population than before), gradual encroachment into areas that have nothing to do with the police and take away from core policing responsibilities have all contributed to this mess. We have a situation where local police consistently let down victims of crime because they spend most of their time picking up the pieces of an equally damaged NHS and social care system. Most police attention is gobbled up by a small proportion of incredibly demanding individuals, a surprisingly high proportion of whom aren't criminals at all but are very vulnerable. But it makes the police largely invisible to the rest of the population except for cases such as this (where they sometimes get it badly wrong). As a result the police no longer have a relationship with the local population. It's massively eroded the principle of policing by consent.

Police are human. No one joins to be popular and you do so with the knowledge that there will be times when you are in physical danger. However, I rarely felt that people were out to get me. A lot of police officers do feel that way now and worry that if they were attacked the crowds would be more likely to join in or film it rather than help them. This means they are constantly on the defensive and it doesn't have a positive outcome in most cases.

I genuinely believe my career was easier in some ways because I'm a fairly slightly built female. I don't look physically imposing, even in uniform. Like most cops I've learned how to project authority when I need to and I was physically quite capable of handling myself too, but my starting point was always communication because I didn't want to fight. My kit gave me an advantage but I'd prefer to avoid it as you've already lost control if it reaches that stage. Because we live in a society which is still quite sexist really, this worked for me really well. I had many a burly criminal with a long arrest record for assaulting police be very well behaved with me. I wouldn't necessarily expect it to go the same way with a male colleague, where patience can sometimes be interpreted as weakness, but a renewed focus on the ability to communicate with people is in my view one of the main ways out of the current mess.

The trouble is that the police need to feel confident to do that and I don't think a lot do. In my old force (not met) you'd spend 80% of your time single crewed. If that made you anxious and feeling under threat (which it does for many) there are negative coping strategies some officers learn - puffing yourself up to look more imposing and head off the threat, trying to dominate the situation, only going for the easy wins, etc. The trouble is you don't unlearn them on the rare occasions you're double crewed or out in a group and the combined effect is horribly authoritarian. It's really damaging.

I haven't read the hearing findings like @capabilityfrowns . I'd be surprised if all the officers who have donated to the fund have to be honest. I think what we're seeing is police officers using this fund to voice their collective discontent with police leadership and the government. The police never get a slap on the back for a job well done, no one promotes the good work they do. All that ever makes it into the press are the cases of misconduct. There are structural processes that force good officers into making poor decisions or not doing something properly and leave them open to misconduct allegations and yet they have no choice but to keep doing that in full knowledge that if it goes wrong they'll be hung out to dry. They're not allowed to strike or join a union. They have the federation but it has no teeth whatsoever. There's no other outlet for them to be heard. It's misplaced but this go fund me has become an outlet for all that anger, anxiety and disillusionment.

I don't know what the answer is. I think policing is in real trouble if I'm honest and I'm glad I'm no longer in it. I think the solution requires money to fix, too, which no one wants to spend on the police because they're a bunch of "racist, misogynist, homophobic idiots".

I'd start with a way more robust recruitment process. But if you want the right calibre of applicants you have to make policing an attractive occupation. At the moment, it's more denigrated than revered, so we need a PR campaign to balance the cases of wrongdoing with the multitude of occasions someone has had their life saved, or a dangerous offender is prosecuted, for example. If we only feed misconduct to the press can we be surprised if public confidence hits an all-time low? It encourages people to be wary of the police and encourages the fear and hostility on both sides.

Much, much more training on communication.

Targets set for positive engagement - instead of go out and stop search, go out and strike up a random conversation with a member of the public, for no reason other than because. It builds trust. Won't happen though because most cops are too busy being despatched to jobs to be actively patrolling these days. Stop search is increasingly rare on frontline teams.

Existing officers need to be double crewed. Evidence shows they make better decisions, investigate more thoroughly and quickly and morale is boosted.

BWV on at all incidents. Has a huge cost implication because of digital storage though.

Do police officers learn to be defensive/aggressive/puffed up/combative etc as a result of feeling under threat?

or are aggressive/power hungry/self important/ cocky people drawn into the force precisely because it allows them to behave like that and meets their needs?

capabilityfrowns · 09/11/2023 17:42

Like rescillience

I'm a slightly build , now aging woman in my 50s
I'm pretty chilled mostly and my default setting is communicate, calm , quiet, try and de-escalate a situation. I also joined later in life so had negotiated a lot of life experiences.

In all honesty most of my colleagues I found were the same disposition. Before I'd joined I'd never had any dealings at all with police and I hadn't a clue what to expect .

Most of (not all but most) of my colleagues were lovely .

Most of the people you deal with are not . And I was single crewed 4 days out of 6 . After a while you just get used to it . You also become very blase about warning markers etc and the danger you are under unless something happens. You go to jobs and see what you find .

The day I was shot at was the day I remembered it's actually quite dangerous.

I'm still in but no longer front line .

The full findings of this case were published on a policing site im on. Outside my friends shop 2 days ago a 15 year old boy was stabbed to death in Leeds .
People will be asking what police were doing . What they will do .
They are very much damned either way - stop search and get it wrong - wave goodbye to your career .
Don't stop search , knife crime and youth crime is rising , get criticism from the world and their dog .

I'm glad I'm off frontline - I only came off 18 months ago and for 16 years worked on response and neighbourhoods but I wouldn't want to go back to frontline now for all the tea in China .

Resilience · 09/11/2023 17:49

@GoodnightGentlemen

Do police officers learn to be defensive/aggressive/puffed up/combative etc as a result of feeling under threat?

or are aggressive/power hungry/self important/ cocky people drawn into the force precisely because it allows them to behave like that and meets their needs?

Probably a bit of both. In the past policing probably attracted too many of the latter. Unfortunately, a lot of these are still in the job. (Most of them will not be on your 999 response teams though, they'll be in the proactive squads or specialist units.) These days, far less so and policing has gone to considerable lengths to screen them out (though some will always slip through just as they do in other professions). It's a stereotype to think police join because of the power the role brings. Many, like me, are motivated by public service and a great many have backgrounds that give them huge empathy with victims. I joined because I'd been a victim of domestic abuse and I wanted to protect other victims and lock up the people who abused them. I had many colleagues with similar back stories.

Among the new recruits I see is a real desire to make the world a better place. They genuinely care about social justice, as is common among a lot of the younger generation of which most new recruits are a part. It's a hugely positive step. Unfortunately, for some recruits, a lack of age and experience comes with a lack of confident social skills and an inability to read people (recognising that what appears as aggression for example is actually fear and you're better off being calm and reassuring than authoritarian). Combine that inexperience with feeling unsafe and it goes wrong. It's another reason for double crewing, so the inexperienced can learn from the experienced and someone who's getting it wrong can be picked up before the behaviour becomes entrenched.

Reddog1 · 09/11/2023 18:16

Blimey, those officers will be able to take early retirement at this rate…

Top brass handled this badly.

capabilityfrowns · 09/11/2023 18:24

You have to be able to do both - be hands on when needed and have good social skills

Unfortunately one of our new recruits decided they would refuse to partake in officer safety training on the grounds it was violent . (It's not optional and you know that on joining )

That's all well and good until you get a 17 stone man off his face coming at you with a machete .

Another new recruit tried to arrest their tutor .

It's a balance . One that's still not being addressed.

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