Parents who let your toddlers run feral, how are your kids now?

[Fruitcakesanddogs]

I have a 23 month old. I am very relaxed with him. He’s messy, loud and basically a complete hurricane. I try to just let him do his thing, unless of course he’s going to harm someone else or is really annoying someone.

I know some people don’t like this kind of parenting. If that’s you then fair enough. However I am interested in hearing from parents who did take a more relaxed approach with their toddler. How did it turn out for you?

If a three year old is telling their mum to fuck off, I think it’s pretty odd to characterise the 3yo as ‘not very likeable’ and the mum as ‘mortified’ by it. That’s not too-permissive parenting, that’s a failure to safeguard your child.

Reminds me of a day out I had.
Dropped my older children at school and went to pick up friend and her son (3) as arranged. Got there and she said we’re not quite ready, give us a couple of minutes. Strapped her son’s car seat in for her while I was waiting then looked through the open front door and she was lying on the floor being a bridge while her son drove a digger around the walls and over her. Went up to the door and called ‘ok shall we go now?’ she replied with something about him not quite having finished. Went back to the car to my own children. After another few minutes of seeing her still lying on the floor not making any attempt to leave I went back to the house and said ‘we really do need to go or we won’t have much time there’. She kind of half sat up and said ‘oh, well, um…’. So I took over and said ‘come on x, we’re going to the zoo, let’s get your shoes on’ He shouted ‘NO! I’m still playing with my digger, mummy lie down!’ and she bloody did! So I said ‘well I’m going to the zoo now with my dc, if you want to come you need to get your shoes on and get into the car, why don’t you bring your digger in the car? Are you coming or shall we go without you?’ Took her ages to get his shoes on with lots of tickles and him running off and driving the digger everywhere then she just let him climb into the car and investigate everything instead of just putting him in his seat and strapping him in. 30 minutes after I had arrived to pick her up we were finally able to leave.

After that he:
Interrupted our conversation constantly with her never asking him to wait a second but instantly speaking to him instead, often leaving me hanging mid sentence.
Kept whacking my dc with the digger until I reached around and took it and gave it to her to hold (her having done nothing to stop him).
Screamed the rest of the way for his digger.

When we got there instead of waiting in the queue he pushed past the people in front of us and rand straight into the gift shop where he picked up loads of toys. I told my dc we’d go in the gift shop on the way out and we walked straight through. Had to wait ages for friend and son to come out By which time my dc had had enough of looking at the first animals and wanted to move on.

He was running along paths pushing past people constantly. My dc wanted to stop to look at something at one point and he just ran off so I had to hurry them along.

Got to the penguins in time for the talk and they chose a couple of children to feed them. He screamed and shouted the whole way through the talk because he hadn’t been chosen. Friend made no effort to get him to be quiet or remove him then at the end when the man asked if anyone had any questions she said please can my ds feed them because he’s really sad you didn’t choose him 😲

As we left the penguins there was a puddle which he walked through pretending to be a penguin. It was quite cute the first time and I said ‘oh look, x is a penguin’. Big mistake. He wouldn’t stop doing it and EVERY TIME said “Kevin, say I’m a penguin”. People were having to squeeze past him as the puddle was in the middle of the path. My dc were extremely bored after a while of that (as was I)so I said we’d go on to the play area and have a snack.

People were on the swing (big basket type)when we got there so my dc had their snack then waited to have a turn. Got their turn just as x arrived. He got on with them then started shouting that he wanted it to himself. Other people were waiting so I said ten more pushes then it’s someone else’s turn. Mine got off, he refused. Friend said ‘oh I’ll just let him have a little turn by himself, that’s what he wants’. My dc played on lots of other stuff, he was still on the swing! Dc were hungry but told them to play a bit more as we were waiting for x. Went over and told her we were going to have lunch soon. She said ‘oh shall we go and eat our sandwiches with Kevin and dc?’ He pointed at the kiosk and shouted ‘no! Chips! I want chips! I don’t want sandwiches, only chips! This is my pirate ship and I’m the captain, get my my chips!” Friend laughed and said aye aye captain then asked me to watch him on the swing while she went to get the chips!

The chips went uneaten, he wouldn’t get off the swing, my dc and I walked around the rest of the zoo then I had to phone her to tell her we needed to leave in 15 minutes so I could pick up other dc. Took them over 20 minutes to get to the exit and while waiting I rang her again to say I really need to go and she said “we’re coming, there’s just still so much we haven’t had a chance to look at so I’m letting him have a little look on the way out”

I had to be really firm with her on the way out because she was about to take him back in the shop and I was going to be late as it was. She said “oh but your dc got to have a look around so it seems unfair” Yes because they didn’t spend 1.5 hours hogging a swing and have been stood here waiting for you for 20 minutes so looked while they were waiting!

Didn’t have time to drop her home as had to go straight to school. Picked up dc and had to go home to pick up dc1 stuff for after school activity. She offered to stay at my house with other dc while I dropped dc1 off I said no it’s fine, they can just stay in the car but her ds was already out of his seat and asking to play at our house so I agreed because it was easier. When it was time to go back out to pick up dc1 I said I’d drop them home but her ds went and sat under the table and she said it didn’t look like he was ready to go yet. She made no move to get him to leave (despite all of my dc already being in the car) so I just had to leave them there. I ended up feeding them and doing my whole evening routine around them, putting kids to bed etc until 8.30pm when her husband rang wondering where she was and came to pick her up!

Kevin I'm guessing that was your last day out with that family?

I work with children and the truth is they are all different, some grow up lovely no matter how they were brought up amd others can be really hard work regardless of parenting style.
I do think that for the most part, those with no/very few boundaries often grow up to think they can do what they want and that can be challenging!
But equally those with too many boundaries often grow up to rebel and also become harder work as they get older.
I think children do better if they have the freedom to explore and be themselves but with certain expectations in place from an early age.
It's fine to let them make a mess and be a bit "feral" sometimes, but it's also expected that they clean up and have a bath at the end of the day. It's fine to be loud when outside playing but it's not okay in a restaurant.
Children need some skills before starting school, things like using a knife and fork and being able take turns etc are important.
I know a 9yr old who struggles with all these things, he eats with his hands and makes more mess than a toddler, he comes out of school with his clothes back to front after PE and has temper tantrums if he doesn't get his own way.... He loses things constantly as he has no consideration for things that his mum has bought him.

@KevinHoho I'm surprised you didn't leave them at the zoo!

omg I felt stressed just reading that!

A permissively parented child of a work friend visited our house and intentionally pissed on our trampoline. My own dc were horrified. As they left dc2 said “well let’s hope we never have to see THEM again”. It won’t win you many invites!

@KevinHoho

Omg that's a horror day out and a horror mother and child.

I'll be honest, if someone like that was at my home and the child wasn't doing what they are told, I would be telling them off myself. I know people are precious about others telling their kids off but I don't care, little darling will be getting told to get his shoes on and get in the car now!

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert here, especially because my 3yo is going through a phase of being a complete horror testing boundaries, but for me it depends on their age.

So, roughly 1-2 when they don't know they're doing wrong, it's a cheerful "Ah-ah, we don't bang the table" and some distraction.

As they get older and they know fine well they're doing something they shouldn't, I get sterner and give warnings that are then followed through on - things like taking the cake away, leaving, confiscating the current favourite toy.

But I firmly believe that as long as you're discouraging them from this kind of behaviour while also not screaming in their face, they'll be grand.

Oh, and we avoided restaurants and all but the most casual of cafes for about a year from 18 months as they just weren't able to sit at the table for long enough and it wasn't reasonable to expect it of them. They got there in the end and last summer we were on holidays and they sat nicely at the table every night with no tablets or anything at 5 and 3.

Oh, and ETA that there are some things that you will need to tell them approximately 10,000 times before the message gets through. I didn't appreciate this before I had kids, I thought you tell them once that something is bold and then they don't do it. The naivety!

Even if he does have years until school dont use communication as an excuse to set boundaries you are totally storing up trouble for yourself and others in the future. Get started gently now as you may have occasions when its not his day out and he won’t understand when you have to move on.

@KevinHoho wow! That’s just … wow! Are you still seeing her?

Honestly - this will bite you in the butt later.

Ive worked with kids and the ones who just do what they want all the time turn out selfish and mean. Ive seen all the ones that refuse to go in a pushchair/ car seat and been allowed to get away with it, the mums hanging around while their kids finishes doing what it wants... They end up with a child that controls them every day. They end up not wanting you to talk to friends, smacking you, screaming, whacking things, breaking things, NO will get you a whirlwind of negativity and backlash.

Now i was gentle in the fact that that they ate when hungry, slept when tired with no enforced times and i was fairly relaxed about what they did and plenty of free time to get lost in their own world. But they also need to learn from the start it's not all about them because trying to teach that later when they are use to the world being all about them and in their own time makes for some horrific behaviour. At not even 2 it might be cute but he has already learn things go at his time, trying to get him to change that later will be really difficult.

I have always been able to take my kids out for meals since birth. Yes i would pick a time when i knew they would be more inclined to sit and eat and i would take a busy bag of things they like to do but once a week even if it was for a juice box and a biscuit we would go and sit and chat and learn to behave. We have been out with other kids like this and had a great time. We have also been out with parents that think it's fine to let their kids get down and run ferral (really embarrassing and the mum just sits and ignores it - that kid grew up controlling the entire family, smacking them, not allowing them to eat things or sit places and if they didn't do what the kid said they would scream and hit til they got their way. Grew up extremely rude, manipulative and not very nice)

My lot had time to be themselves but also the boundaries were there from day one. No screaming, no running around being lound unless we are in a park/ soft play, when at a table we sit and behave, always be kind, listen to adults. They walked before 12 months, got dressed themselves by about 18 months (backwards or inside out but they rocked it and i didnt correct it, i praised what they acheived) they started cooking with me as soon as they could snap up things like peppers with their hands and were the only kids in primary that could cook meals unaided...they are 11 and 18 now and very caring kids. Yes they have tried to push the boundaries, no they dont always appreciate the boundary at the time and been told no and it is enforced. But they dont push them in a bad way and they always appreciate the boundary after they have had time to think about it.

Dont get me wrong - they had their days, but in general they were a pleasure to be around every day.

Letting your kid go ferral is easy when they are small, much easier than keeping boundaries but you will pay heavily later.

@KevinHoho I know a parent/child a bit like this although not quite so bad. We unfortunately have to dine with him on occasion. I drink wine to numb my experience.

But what makes me cringe inside perhaps the most is “Oh he knows exactly what he wants. He sleeps when he wants, eats when he wants… His key workers at nursery just love him and he has them all wrapped around his little finger.”

🙄

E

It's not easy, they have strong will, oppinions and confidence, so more work and patience from parents required. :) But breaking babies and toddlers just to have timid, easy children later is still NO from me.

I spent time with a child my daughter was friendly with at nursery the other day. (they're now six). He's nothing like as bad as that story, but it was still a taxing experience. I mentioned that after meeting them at the park we'd be going to a cafe to kill some time until my DD's swimming. He immediately said I want to go to the cafe, now. His mum was about to agree; I said no way; we're here to go the park not sit in a cafe. Then we had to play games that he wanted to do. Eventually I had to say right that's enough I'm not doing this all morning.
His mum seemed a bit miffed 😁I'm clearly getting old but I notice the difference between the parenting style of my DS's friends parents (he's 11) and my DD's friends. My DD ran a race against her friend and the dad said that my DD had cheated and made them rerun it. She won again. So he said it was a draw 🙄
All the parents think my DD is some kind of perfect child. She's definitely not; it's just a lot of their kids are way too cossetted and the parents lack awareness. One girl makes anyone who comes round sit and watch her 'ballet show' for hours.

My best friend let her kids run feral, because she wanted to be besties with her kids when they were older, and felt that creating boundaries would ruin the chances of it happening.

She now has a teenager who has friends, but is a major bully with no manners, and a dislike of everyone around her because she sees them as idiots beneath her; and an eight year old with no friends, because she beats, spits on and verbally abuses everyone around her, including my friend and her teachers. She spends most of her school time in isolation because of her behaviour, and my friend is in counselling after having a mental breakdown over the 8yo behaviour.

I think there's a big difference between a feral kid, and gentle discipline with boundaries. I give my kids boundaries, and they don't generally need punishments, but they still get them if it's needed because I don't want a kid with no manners or sense.

This really totally depends on the age of the child. I really like the book How To Talk So Little Kids Will Listen (assuming this child is under 4). If over 4 just get the original, not the little kids one.

But for pushchair:

• Developing it as a positive association/habit so they have lots of happy associations with pushchair and willingly go in it, keeping it as an expectation for specific situations e.g. when we go on the bus we are in the buggy, no discussion.
• Hand them a drink/toy/snack as they go in. In extreme scenarios, maybe a phone with a game or video on it. Specific, buggy-only toys are also a good idea and also having a rule like you can only have drink/snack in buggy, not when walking.
• Just bend them in half with lots of soothing chat and then strap them in while they are flailing and quickly get moving - they soon calm down, especially if they were protesting because they are tired.
• Also other distraction once in there such as "Ooh look at the aeroplane/doggy/bus!" or "What do you think you'd like to play on when we get to the park?"
• Do you even need to use the pushchair? Is it an option to do something else instead, wait 10 mins and try again, etc.

Thumping table/putting feet on table:

• If they are doing this they are probably tiny like under 2 years? So just move them away from the table If they are in a highchair or on your lap etc. Move them back to buggy perhaps.
• Again, is it even a problem? Sometimes it's not. If it's outside, or a fairly noisy environment, drumming on the table might not matter and might be a fun thing to do which they quickly lose interest in anyway. A lot of the time it would be inappropriate, so do something else.
• Can you redirect or reduce the action? For example, modelling much softer tapping the table, removing shoes so that it is just socky baby feet and not mucky shoes on the table. Again if inappropriate, use another strategy.
• Distraction occupying the hands so that they are not being used to bang. A song with actions, or some kind of play. It's useful to bring small toys along for distraction/occupation purposes. Colouring, small cars, sticker books etc. Again, phone - in extremis.
• Involve child in whatever the adults are doing - looking at the menu, choosing food, having a conversation.
• Choose a child-friendly venue that has a play area, take child off to play area while waiting for food or waiting for adults to finish eating.
• Just gently block/move their hands or feet away while you do whatever else you are doing (playing, talking, involving, distracting etc)

Throwing things:

• Redirect to something appropriate to throw, like bean bags, velcro darts, soft toys or balloons.
• Suggest other activities related to "trajectory" schema such as rolling a ball to each other, rolling balls/cars down a slope, playing with a marble run toy etc.
• Move outside or suggest moving outside to a garden or the park or to an appropriate indoor space if they want to play a throwing game.
• Look at the root of the throwing - if it's boredom, suggest a different activity, if it's need for vigorous movement, go outside or suggest something like a dance party, if it's frustration change the activity to a less frustrating one, if it's frustration AT a person, try some liason between the children, if the child is easily frustrated because they are hungry/tired/need a poo, address this need, with temporary redirection to a low-demand activity if necessary (e.g. time needed to prepare food). If they are just wound up, help them to calm down (co-regulation), if they are just looking for attention, provide attention but in an unrelated way so they aren't thinking that throwing things works.
• If a particular toy is a problem for throwing, put it away until the child is older and/or until it can be used only with supervision.

Obviously, not every suggestion will work for every child every time - with experience and practice you'll get to know which things work best for your own child in which situations.

But breaking babies and toddlers just to have timid, easy children is still NO from me

I don’t want my children to be timid either and I know parenthood is far from easy, regardless if the child’s temperament, and I’m sure most agree. Surely there’s middle ground and nuance and one can parent and raise decent, kind and confident people who still know their worth and are far from timid?

ZebraDanios
Very well said and I totally agree with you.

My children are not less than me for being children. They are no less deserving of respect than me, or any other adult, simply for being children.
They are children though, with immature brains and undeveloped emotional regulation, which will display in their behaviour. That's why they need me as their parent to have consistent boundaries and support them with their feelings.

My job isn't to prevent them experiencing sadness, anger, frustration or any other normal human emotions. My job isn't to run around catering to their every demand out of fear that they might be disappointed or sad.My job is to raise them to be pleasant and functional members of society with enough strategies to manage life.

To do that my job is to be responsible for the situations I put them in, only give them age appropriate levels of choice, and not dump all my parental decision making and responsibilities onto tiny shoulders who haven't got the cognitive or emotional ability to carry those burdens.

Offloading parental responsibilities and decisions onto immature shoulders isn't showing children respect. It's placing burdens on children that aren't theirs to carry.

At 23 months old this stood out for me: So far his communication has not been good enough yet for me to explain that I want to leave the shop and need him to put the dinosaur back
He may not be able to reply in sentences but I would be worried, unless there were known factors, by a 23 month old who didn't understand simple sentences like "It's time to go, put it down."
He might not do it because he's learnt he can ignore you, but if you genuinely think he isn't understanding, then I'd start by getting his hearing checked.

@CatOnTheCludgy @grandepalais I have seen them a couple of times since unfortunately. One we arranged to meet at a NT property (had learnt not to be responsible for her transport!). There was a kids trail around the house which we did after they’d been running around in the grounds for a while. I warned mine before we went in ‘walking feet and indoor voices’. Her ds ran ahead and one of mine went too. Called them back and pointed out a big vase and the other people around and reminded them to walk so they didn’t knock into anything/anyone. She said something like ‘it’s a family place, they won’t mind if they run, they wouldn’t have the activities if they didn’t want children in here’. I said I wanted mine to walk to avoid any accidents. Her ds was shoving other children out of the way to get to the items on the trail, went under the cord in several of the rooms and then ran down a spiral staircase pushing past other people.

Had decided not to see them again then she messaged to ask what days my youngest was In preschool and did I want to meet for a coffee. Thought it might be nice to get together without dc as we used to get on really well when we worked together. Arranged to meet in town and she had her ds with her, I said oh I thought x would be in preschool today, is he poorly? She said no, but she thought it would be easier to meet without my dc as he does better when she can focus just on him . Our coffee ended up being in McDonald’s because it’s child friendly. Apparently to her child friendly means he can run around and climb on the tables and hang off the back of other people’s chairs. It was so embarrassing her letting him do this so I suggested we took our coffees to the park so he could run off some steam. We didn’t get to talk at all because he wanted her full attention the whole time which I get, but at the same time surely most people let someone finish their sentence before turning their focus?

It’s a shame because we were good friends once, but she honestly thinks the whole world revolves around her ds and that everyone around her thinks he’s an adorable little character.

😂😂😂

Surely what we're aiming and searching for here is self control. This can be gained without 'being controlled '

Honestly it depends on the kid. I have one who would just do those things all the more if I try to get him to stop, and one who will cheerfully put down toys in a shop when told not to touch and leave happily with a goodbye. The other would have lost his shit. They were parented the same 🤷🏻‍♀️

People are NOT doing their kids any favours at all by letting them run 'feral' or rule the roost, quite the opposite. It's lazy parenting. Setting boundaries and sticking to them requires much more effort. I would say the parents are judged more than the kids, but it's those kids who grow up to have the problems that follow such an upbringing.