Do we actually know who bombed the hospital in Gaza yet?

[Ididivfama]

I keep seeing mixed reports. It’s really unsettling not to know.

Those accounts were quite horrifying.

So much death and suffering on both sides.

Can you demonstrate that this was the intent?

Hamas have written their genocidal intent down in black and white, but can you prove that Israel has the "intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part" beyond reasonable doubt?

And the bakery as well just remembered which would provide food for a lot of people

This is not who do you love mummy or daddy that you can choose only one option. A death is a death it doesn’t matter who pulled the trigger and Israel is as bad as Hamas. They’re both killing people. It doesn’t matter whether intentional or not. They are killing of people. Israel has thrown more rockets than USA in Afghanistan. Pretty sure that’s not cuz they want to be supportive of the Palestinian civilians.

So the Hamas attack (despite them writing down they want to end Israel) wasn't a genocide but the attack on Gaza is a genocide.

I see you.

You know that both can be a genocide ? That it’s not one or the other ? You always seem to fail that people can condemn the killing of both parties whilst you only condemn one of them and shit happens you shouldn’t have born in Palestina

Evidence for this?

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1715015632968646746

I'm asking you if you think the Hamas attack was a genocide? Pretty straight forward question? You seem to be side stepping but that could just be my fault.

What ever way you want to phrase it the oppressor needs to make the first move.

You're looking at it through a particular Israel = oppressor lens though. Others don't see it that way and Israel themselves certainly don't see it that way. War broke out in 1948 as soon as Israel declared independence, and they were attacked by a coalition of Arab countries. That was the first of a whole host of conflicts as well as ongoing domestic terrorism.
Until people can understand and acknowledge why Israel feel so massively on the defensive, and that it is with valid reason, it will continue to be a stalemate.

The "first move", depending on what it is, could see them wiped out.

This is where I think the current definition of genocide might need clarifying. In its application there seems to be an implied provision that the 'intent to destroy ' is a realisable ambition. But it's not explicit, and it needs to be.

Otherwise most acts of mass terrorism would fall under the definition, heck even a single murder could constitute a genocide based on intention.

It being realisable means that their intention has some prospects of success. So whilst someone who has stated that want to kill Muslims one person at a time, who commits a murder, might show genocidal intent, it's not genocide.

So the acts of a nation are more likely to constitute genocide either because of the level of the acts, or the potential level of the acts.

Hamas is no real threat to Israel. They can never thankfully succeed at their aims of wiping out Israel, and their terrorist acts are committed against a regime whose power dwarfs theirs. Again, more homicidal intent, or hell-bent on homicide, however your want to put it, but it's much more debatable whether it's actual genocide.

The sheer power of Israel coupled with a much higher death rate, and a siege lasting more than a decade, together with comments made by the government about wanting to destroy gaza, reduce it to tents, give the citizens the choice of leaving, dying or subjugation etc, much more point to it fulfilling the definition of genocide as it's intended to be read (it with realisable intent, not just intent).

I think what is being suggested is that Palestinian population growth is not down to births. It is down to jihadis flocking to Palestine from all over the world and bringing their families with them so that they can wage a holy war.

Some people are incredibly naive and have really swallowed a lot of propaganda. I find it interesting that the phrasing is always the same- genocide, occupiers, colonialism.

And yet none of them every know how the Jews were cleansed from every major city in the Arab world as part of the huge pogroms at the start of the 20th century. Why are there so many Jews in Israel? Because the Egyptians and the Saudi’s burned them out of their homes.

That's a very good post. With respect to your last two paragraphs. In a dark scenario and with the help of Hizbollah, other Islamist entities and other Arab armies, Hamas could succeed in wiping out Israel, not likely, but still possible. I don't even want to think about the possibility of a small nuclear device going off in Tel a Viv.

But on a technical point, it leads to the genocide of Gazans, not Palestinians as a whole. Neither of which I obviously agree with.

Of course Israel dont see themselves that way. We all know how Israel see themselves. That doesn't tally with the reality though does it? Are Israel caged in a small strip of land? Does anyone tell Israel who or what can come in and out of its borders? Does anyone control Israels water? Does anyone have an air, land and sea blockade on Israel? And I could go on and on with this. Israel are not the victims in this relationship. Victims don't have that much power.

It doesn't matter what 'isreals truth' is, it only matters what the actual truth is.

I mean Israel could use a nuclear bomb if they wanted …

They committed a genocide in Palestine - Nakba. That is why they are where they are because they ethnically cleansed the place. Being a victim at one point doesn't give you free reign to victimise others. You don't get a few free genocide passes.

https://twitter.com/Xwinston_/status/1714988766291501299

just saw this of Roger Waters from Pink Floyd stating why he has his position on Palestine. Interesting account. worth a watch.

A very good question.

Here's what the United Nations says about that aspect.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

@Gruntsandgroans again, it's perspective. You see it that way. Clearly not everyone does or there would be no debates and arguments about it.

Reality though is that Israel will use their greater power to keep themselves safe as long as they feel under threat.
You've not acknowleged the wars I mentioned, or Hamas' charter to destroy Israel. That's a bit of a crucial point, in fact the central point as to why they can't really back down at this point
How would you suggest that is resolved?

Being a victim at one point doesn't give you free reign to victimise others. You don't get a few free genocide passes

Well quite but from the global response to the 7 October terrorist attacks you'd be forgiven for thinking there are many that give Hamas as many free passes as they wish.

The fact that you’re always finding reasons to justify some od the attacks. But don’t worry I’ll report yours as well for name calling me. Same way I’ve reported several of yours in the last days

Just because you say you 'feel' a certain way it doesn't give you free reign to massacre 1000s of civilians. Feelings and reality are not the same thing. I have answered your end question so many times I am bored of it at this stage and cannot be arsed typing it out.

Personally I haven't seen anyone standing up for Hamas. 70% of the people Israel have massacred are women and children. How many of those do you think are Hamas? How many of the starving people do you think are Hamas? How many of the people 1000s injured do you think are Hamas? The global response is to the massacre of Palestinian people. I can't count the times I have said that I don't think what Hamas did was right, I am sick to death of having to preface everything with that or else getting called 'pro Hamas' or a sympathiser or whatever, that too is boring and isn't the gotcha people seem to think it is.

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