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Do we actually know who bombed the hospital in Gaza yet?

1000 replies

Ididivfama · 18/10/2023 13:10

I keep seeing mixed reports. It’s really unsettling not to know.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
76
immigrant002 · 19/10/2023 11:40

My point it the current government in israel is telling you their goals and is very clear on their objectives
Their actions do not show any indication of caring about hostages their sole goal is to kill as many Palestinians as possible

And refusing to see there is a humanitarian crisis in gaza and that collective punishment is justifiable makes you just as radical as these palestinian kids posted !

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 11:45

immigrant002 · 19/10/2023 11:40

My point it the current government in israel is telling you their goals and is very clear on their objectives
Their actions do not show any indication of caring about hostages their sole goal is to kill as many Palestinians as possible

And refusing to see there is a humanitarian crisis in gaza and that collective punishment is justifiable makes you just as radical as these palestinian kids posted !

I don't think I've said there's not a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, please show me where I've said this. That makes your last paragraph mute.

immigrant002 · 19/10/2023 11:48

Not you the government of israel is refusing to see it this is the ambassador saying it

I am
Just pointing out your arguments are all about hamas like the israeli government are peaceful liberals

Gruntsandgroans · 19/10/2023 11:51

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 11:24

I honestly believe that two sides could live in peace if there was a will for it but at the end of the day, the Arab nations don't want a two state solution, they just want a Palestinian state that replaces Israel.

A never ending war is the result, with the people of Gaza and to a lesser extent, the people of the West Bank becoming martyrs for the "cause"

I don't see that now. I don't see how they can come back from this. I'm feeling a bit emotional because I was just watching Motaz Azaizas stories on Instagram where he is at one of the block of apartments that Israel bombed to pieces last night in Southern Gaza, where they were told they would be safe. Motazs Optician and all of his family were wiped in the bomb. These are real dead people. Real families are being wiped out. One minute you are an Optician providing health care, the next you and you entire family are dead in your home. Every 15mins Israel are killing a child. I've just seen someone severed foot.

How can you make peace with people who think that this is ok? How can there ever be any trust there given how Israel have and continues to treat Palestinians? When the Israeli Military is open about the fact that 'the emphasis is on damage not on accuracy'? When the defence minister said 'We will eliminate everything'? When an Israeli ambassador says that Israel have 'the right to bomb hospitals'? These are not people looking for peace. These aren't people who can be reasoned with. They are blood thirsty, war criminals.

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 11:54

Gruntsandgroans · 19/10/2023 11:51

I don't see that now. I don't see how they can come back from this. I'm feeling a bit emotional because I was just watching Motaz Azaizas stories on Instagram where he is at one of the block of apartments that Israel bombed to pieces last night in Southern Gaza, where they were told they would be safe. Motazs Optician and all of his family were wiped in the bomb. These are real dead people. Real families are being wiped out. One minute you are an Optician providing health care, the next you and you entire family are dead in your home. Every 15mins Israel are killing a child. I've just seen someone severed foot.

How can you make peace with people who think that this is ok? How can there ever be any trust there given how Israel have and continues to treat Palestinians? When the Israeli Military is open about the fact that 'the emphasis is on damage not on accuracy'? When the defence minister said 'We will eliminate everything'? When an Israeli ambassador says that Israel have 'the right to bomb hospitals'? These are not people looking for peace. These aren't people who can be reasoned with. They are blood thirsty, war criminals.

Edited

I don't see how they came back from the previous 6 wars with Arab Nations, but they did.

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 12:06

To reiterate and confirm, Israel has been invaded 6 times by various Arab armies. They still offered a 2 state solutions.

ZiriForEver · 19/10/2023 12:06

Noone (relevant) cares about Gaza people - not Hamas who use them as human shields, not the West Bank Palestine, not the Arabic countries in the region (who wouldn't take even token numbers of selected refugees).
All see them just as a tool against Israel.

It seems that the "bombing of a hospital with 500+ casualties" morphed into "misfired racket struck a parking lot". It is interesting to observe how the headlines evolve around it.

Totalblindnessofthesoul · 19/10/2023 12:20

ZiriForEver · 19/10/2023 12:06

Noone (relevant) cares about Gaza people - not Hamas who use them as human shields, not the West Bank Palestine, not the Arabic countries in the region (who wouldn't take even token numbers of selected refugees).
All see them just as a tool against Israel.

It seems that the "bombing of a hospital with 500+ casualties" morphed into "misfired racket struck a parking lot". It is interesting to observe how the headlines evolve around it.

Not even a token amount eh?

Do we actually know who bombed the hospital in Gaza yet?
FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 12:22

Totalblindnessofthesoul · 19/10/2023 12:20

Not even a token amount eh?

I think you'll find they've been give permanent refugee status and will never be given full citizen ship, like we do in the UK

DoDoDoD · 19/10/2023 12:23

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 10:58

Or you could say that that the take the well documented radicalisation from their schools out onto the streets.

You really have swallowed all the propaganda. Living in fear and horrific conditions in an open air prison, being treated as second-class citizens and being displaced from your home by settlers is bound to radicalise people

AliceAnnaEllieOlive · 19/10/2023 12:23

Numerous innocent people in Palestine, Israel, Ukraine, and other conflicts face dreadful conditions. Unfortunately, wars and genocides like the Armenian disaster receive less attention. For Westerners, including myself, who have only witnessed war through media, despite my attempts to understand what is must be like, it remains incomprehensible. We really are very, very fortunate here (as it stands).

As a Westerner, I feel ill-prepared to offer my perspective on the Palestine-Israel-Hamas conflict, as I am certain that I would overlook important nuances.

I have recently discovered The Saad Truth With Dr. Saad, a podcast by an Arab-Jew with fascinating viewpoints, particularly on the Israel-Hamas conflict. As a person with both Arab and Jewish backgrounds, his insights have proven to be very interesting, for anyone who is a podcast listener.

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 12:28

DoDoDoD · 19/10/2023 12:23

You really have swallowed all the propaganda. Living in fear and horrific conditions in an open air prison, being treated as second-class citizens and being displaced from your home by settlers is bound to radicalise people

I've actually done a lot of research (not just googling) their kids are radicalised from the age of 4, it's you, sorry, who has been radicalised. You certainly use all of the key words.

May I remind you that Israel has not been in Gaza for almost 2 decades. It's in the Arab people's interests to keep it as an "open prison"

Once you liberate your thoughts to see who the actual bad guys are here, things get a lot easier.

shadypines · 19/10/2023 12:34

Totally irresponsible journalism to wildly speculate, they should just report the facts and wait til they know. Extra atrocities going off all over the world on the back of shite reporting, as if there's not enough.

DownNative · 19/10/2023 12:35

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 19/10/2023 11:07

The people that Barr the responsibility for child soldiers are their parents and the people who brainwash them into taking part in warfare at a young age.

It is increasing impossible to separate legitimate soldiers from radicalised guérilla fighters. Because they are recruited young and are essentially still part of the civilian population. Violence has been taught as holy and the duty of all proud Palestinians. How do you undo that training?

What is obvious is that you cannot leave it up to Hamas. They have had decades to sort out the infrastructure in Gaza and have done nothing but harass, indoctrinate and plot. Should Israël leave them to continue that?

What is the right call here? Hamas use schools as bunkers and dig munitions dumps next to hospitals and don’t seem to care about accidentally killing their own people. How can you bargain with a group of people like that?

Correct.

"Security in the area around Rafah is also of concern to Egypt because Sinai has been the site of an Islamist insurgency that flared a decade ago. Hamas, which has run the Gaza Strip since 2007, shares the Islamist ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood, a movement outlawed in Egypt."

And:

"Hamas' deadly attack on southern Israel six days ago - unprecedented for the group in its planning and scale - was a devastating demonstration of the military expertise it has gained since seizing control of Gaza in 2007....

Necessity is the mother of invention," said Ali Baraka, a senior Hamas official, adding that the group had long drawn on money and training from Iran and Iranian regional proxies like Lebanon's Hezbollah, while bolstering its own forces in Gaza.

Difficulties in importing weapons meant that over the past nine years "we developed our capabilities and are able to manufacture locally", said Baraka, who is based in Lebanon....

In the 2008 Gaza war, Hamas rockets had a maximum range of 40 km (25 miles), but that had risen to 230 km by the 2021 conflict, he added.

After the most recent Gaza war in 2021, Hamas and an affiliated group called Palestinian Islamic Jihad managed to retain 40% of their missile inventories, a key target of the Israelis, according to the U.S. based non-profit Jewish Institute for National Security of America, keeping roughly 11,750 missiles compared with 23,000 before the conflict."

www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/bombardments-hit-area-gaza-sinai-border-crossing-gaza-officials-2023-10-10/

So, as a result of Israel Defense Force pulling out of Gaza in 2005, Hamas ended up in power just two years later. And increasingly improved their weapons capabilities whilst increasing their total membership from 10,000 in 1990 to 40,000 in 2023.

It's quite clear that Israeli withdrawal from Gaza made things worse from a National Security perspective.

Not better.

"Hamas was probably more successful than it thought it would be, but also more successful than it should have been for its own good.....Hamas aimed to penetrate Israel in a way that would give it centrality and relevance for decades to come, but by killing hundreds of Israelis and taking 150 hostages in the first days, Hamas has put itself in an impossible position. Israel is united in its determination to change the status quo ante and completely push Hamas from power. It is hard to imagine that Hamas will be able to retain power in Gaza when the dust settles. There may be hope for the Palestinian national cause, but there’s very little hope for Hamas."

And:

"Since Hamas took power in 2007, the Israeli military periodically would go into Gaza, fight with Hamas, and destroy some of its infrastructure. Hamas would rebuild for a few years, and then the cycle would repeat itself. Israelis called this “mowing the grass,” an unpleasant but necessary repetitive task. This cycle is no longer going to be acceptable to the Israeli public or political leadership. Now, the question is what kind of government will emerge in Gaza after the war. It might entail greater control for the Palestinian National Authority based in Ramallah, some sort of new local governance, governance under the tutelage of the Israeli military, or perhaps a coalition of Arab states. There are a lot of possibilities, but it is hard to imagine that Hamas can remain in power."

And:

"Israel and the Arab states are strategically aligned on Gaza. Virtually all Arab governments are hostile to Hamas, which is essentially the Palestinian version of the Muslim Brotherhood. Many of these states have outlawed the Muslim Brotherhood and jailed its members. They also fear the tentacles of Iran, which has helped bankroll Hamas and trained some of its fighters. Arab governments may have a role in helping shape a political outcome in Gaza that simultaneously helps advance Palestinian national aspirations while also dealing a blow to Islamist movements and Iranian proxies."

Link: https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamas-and-israel-current-situation-and-looking-ahead

United Nations Watch states Hamas AND the Palestinian Authority use children as soldiers.

"Both the PA and Hamas routinely indoctrinate Palestinian children to aspire to martyrdom through armed confrontations with Israel. According to Palestinian Media Watch (PMW), “the PA operates a systematic and institutionalized policy and program to recruit child soldiers/terrorists.”

In its reports to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) on this issue, PMW accused the PA of indoctrinating Palestinian children to admire and emulate terrorists and noted that “The PA openly admits, that the child terrorists are not acting in a vacuum, but rather they consider them to be the PA’s soldiers who the PA has sent to carry out a mission.”

United Nations Watch below:

"PA television (TV) broadcast quizzes children on songs with “value and meanings” which PA considers expression of Palestinian “national identity.” One of the songs depicts Israel as the “enemy” and encourages armed attacks: “I'm coming with my rifle… I'm coming towards you, my enemy… with cleavers and knives.” (January 2021).

• Official PA TV children’s program commemorated cartoonist Naji al-Ala, by sharing several cartoons encouraging violence among children, including one where Fatima (Palestinian woman cartoon character) presents an AK47 to Handala (the Palestinian refugee cartoon character) and one of her handing rocks to children. (August 2020).

• Fatah Facebook page promotes child soldiers by sharing video of Jordanian boy in military uniform holding slingshot and rifle. He wants to “shoot Jews” who killed terrorist Omar Abu Laila (killed Israeli soldier, stole his weapon and shot to death Israeli father of 12). (February 2020).

• Hamas TV children’s program interviews young children dressed in military fatigues. One child says he wants to be an engineer when he grows up “so that I can blow up the Jews.” The child host responds “Keep waging Jihad…when you grow up you will wage resistance against the Jews…” (September 4, 2015).

More from United Nations Watch:

"In addition, PA and Hamas educational programs routinely portray terrorists as role models and incite children to violence. For example, every year Hamas runs summer camps in which it trains children in military tactics and weapons use.

Likewise, summer camps run by Fatah and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) teach children to venerate famous Palestinian martyrs like Abu Jihad, who was responsible for terror attacks in which 125 Israelis were killed.

Therefore, it is no surprise that Palestinian children perpetrate violent attacks against Israelis and participate in violent confrontations with the goal of harming Israeli soldiers and civilians."

There is absolutely NO doubt that Palestinian children ARE taught to hate Israelis. Even worse, they're TRAINED to murder Israelis!

Do we actually know who bombed the hospital in Gaza yet?
FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 12:44

shadypines · 19/10/2023 12:34

Totally irresponsible journalism to wildly speculate, they should just report the facts and wait til they know. Extra atrocities going off all over the world on the back of shite reporting, as if there's not enough.

What concerned me, and I could be wrong, was the apparent glee of lots of the MSM as to the perpetrators. It was mind-blowing.

shadypines · 19/10/2023 12:49

You probably weren't wrong. News reporting is shocking at times, sod the professional for a 'good' story.

shadypines · 19/10/2023 12:49

Professionalism

DoDoDoD · 19/10/2023 12:54

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 12:28

I've actually done a lot of research (not just googling) their kids are radicalised from the age of 4, it's you, sorry, who has been radicalised. You certainly use all of the key words.

May I remind you that Israel has not been in Gaza for almost 2 decades. It's in the Arab people's interests to keep it as an "open prison"

Once you liberate your thoughts to see who the actual bad guys are here, things get a lot easier.

I've done far far more than google and have engaged in proper academic research and even published on it. Your posts are at best disingenuous - 'Israel has not been in Gaza for 2 decades' - so who mans the checkpoints? Who controls the border? 'The Arab people's' - what is that supposed to mean? The actions of Hamas are deeply unsavoury - the facts you even use the term 'the bad guys' just shows how puerile and biased your analysis is.

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 13:05

DoDoDoD · 19/10/2023 12:54

I've done far far more than google and have engaged in proper academic research and even published on it. Your posts are at best disingenuous - 'Israel has not been in Gaza for 2 decades' - so who mans the checkpoints? Who controls the border? 'The Arab people's' - what is that supposed to mean? The actions of Hamas are deeply unsavoury - the facts you even use the term 'the bad guys' just shows how puerile and biased your analysis is.

"bad guys" I was trying to be mean to anyone who is in that camp.

Care to PM with a link to your published research? I'm always up for learning something new.

DdraigGoch · 19/10/2023 13:11

Flowersfield · 19/10/2023 10:14

Everyone keeps banging on about Hamas this and Hamas that; its their fault Palestinians are being bombed, its their fault they live in an open prison, its their fault Palestinian's food, water and electricity is controlled. Its their fault this has been happening for over 70 years ( Hamas only came into power in 2007). These people have had enough of being abused and oppressed and an oppressor will NEVER deem the resistance of the oppressed as righteous or acceptable. Someone the other day explained the situation between the two countries similar to being in a relationship with a narcissist psychopath they (Israel) destroy you completely and then cry victim and make you out to be the bad guy.

Hamas are doing half of the fucking bombing. Analysts are as certain as they can be that the explosion in the hospital car park was from a rocket launched from within the strip - not an unusual occurrence.

Hamas tore up water pipes and used them to make rockets. They pillage humanitarian aid. They oppress the citizens in a fundamentalist state.

The Israeli government have gone too far in their response, and they've done a lot wrong in the past, but the undeniable fact remains that if whoever was elected in 2005 hadn't started lobbing rockets over the fence, Gaza would be a very different place today.

SinnerBoy · 19/10/2023 13:21

FreeCoathangers · Today 07:14

After sleeping on it, what I find sick is some people who wish to use the word genocide against a people who suffered an actual genocide.

Using your reasoning, you could claim that Srebrenica wasn't an act of genocide, because almost a million Bosnians didn't die.

We don't get to decide what is, or is not genocide, it has been defined by statespeople, diplomats and lawyers. If you care to read the link from earlier in the thread, you'll understand it, if you wish to.

SomeCatFromJapan · 19/10/2023 13:22

I just saw this tweet, anyone disagree with it out of interest?

"Easy pathway to ceasefire: Hamas releases the hostages (who are still being kept captive), and resigns from power, and gives up the Hamas operatives responsible for the massacre of October 7th to Israel/the ICC."

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 19/10/2023 13:25

@SomeCatFromJapan

I suspect that’s the only way Israël will back down. Problem is that they look like they might take power in the West Bank.

If they can be gotten out of Gaza then the peace process might stand a chance.

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 13:30

SomeCatFromJapan · 19/10/2023 13:22

I just saw this tweet, anyone disagree with it out of interest?

"Easy pathway to ceasefire: Hamas releases the hostages (who are still being kept captive), and resigns from power, and gives up the Hamas operatives responsible for the massacre of October 7th to Israel/the ICC."

It's possible, given the nature of the hostages (kids, babies toddlers) but I'm not sure they are going to release motivated, fighting fit military men back into Palestine.

If Hamas resigns, something else will just take it's place. Sadly.

SomeCatFromJapan · 19/10/2023 13:31

@Ratsoffasinkingsauage I'm curious to see if anyone disagrees and why, although I suspect a lot of people would rather not engage that explain why they support Hamas retaining control of Gaza and why they think that is in the populace's best interest.

This is what is confusing me about the current conflict really. It's clear that it could be ended from the Hamas side relatively easily, whereas they've placed Israel in a position where backing down at this stage would be extremely difficult.
I'm absolutely baffled at the lack of critisism they are attracting from the pro-Palestinian movement. The ire is entirely directed at Israel but what will that actually achieve? Realistically Israel aren't going anywhere, surely the best way forward for Palestinians is moderate leadership that recognise them so that longer term, relations can be normalised and they can have some sort of hope of economic growth?

People won't even hear it though, they'll just scream about Israel being genocidal and wanting to kill millions of Palestinians. Crack on with that but it's not productive. At least I'm suggesting a way forward.

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