Do we actually know who bombed the hospital in Gaza yet?

[Ididivfama]

I keep seeing mixed reports. It’s really unsettling not to know.

https://youtube.com/shorts/NDZBsW8yLqg?si=YdQq8qWNiro9f7Aj

Look at all these nice people getting along with each other in Jerusalem.

What went wrong?

I'm not asking you to accept it, am I. I clearly stated my opinion and gave the reasons why. You not caring about my opinion doesn't invalidate it.

Well, I'll leave you to your semantics.

Enjoy your coffee and poptarts.

There are many reasons but you're not going to hear them from me. However, as we can see from the Arab countries in the middle east today, the don't seem to tolerate minorities of any kind very well. They don't even tolerate fellow arab minorities like when a country is mostly Shia or mostly Sunni.

I’m sure we could easily get 800 scholars to say the opposite. There is no genocide. There is a war. And it was not started by Israel

To be fair this is a bit of a misrepresentation. Minorities were not generally treated well in the Middle East. There has been fighting on and on throughout history by the different religious and ethnic groups there.

Okay, I agree on "no party that would be accepted by all". This much is true!

I acknowledge - without claiming to understand, on a personal level, but I have had enough Israeli friends to have had these conversations before, and I DO have personal experience of seeing people experience existential fear - that what you are articulating is a genuinely felt and arguably very painful thing people experience. And, yes, centuries worth of anti-semitism make this sort of thing complex, multi-generational trauma! Yes, this actually really, really matters! But it was not, for the hugely overwhelming part, Palestinians, who did this to Jews!

Here is where we are going to have to differ:

1. Generally speaking, and I am saying this as someone who has made the "was here first" and "historical right" argument in the past - albeit for the other side: you can claim this all day long! But, ultimately, all over the world and all over history, demographic change happens! And: if the (displaced and persecuted, in this alterate reality - thought experiment, go with me please!) Norwegians were to turn up in Norfolk come tomorrow and claim "but we used to have this, historical right! now: please bugger off!", people in Norfolk who have lived there all their lives and for generations would, arguably, not just pack up, go live in a refugee camp somewhere on the outskirts of Milton Keynes and feel no resentment whatsoever. Nor would it be reasonable to expect them to! That is just not how humans work! Realistically speaking, both Jews and Palestinians have called this piece of land their home at various points in history - at times concurrently and quite peacefully so! Zionists (and, I mean this as in the academic sense: proponents of the notion that there ought to be a Jewish national state in the area nowadays known as "Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories" - not in the Neonazi conspiracy theorist way!) will want to base their claim on "oh, but: 2000 years ago ...!". And, arguably, they are right on the subject of "demographics, some 2000 years ago". Palestinians will base their argument on "from the times my great-great-great grandfather was born ... and beyond, my family has lived and farmed here". And they are also, arguably, not wrong on that one either! To them "oh, but 2000 years ago ..." (or even: a mere 500 or so) reads roughly about the same as my hypothetical "alternate universe displaced Norwegians". Frankly, that is all perfectly understandable - and precisely zero helpful in terms of facilitating a permanent, peaceful solution! We shall have to get more creative somehow and re-frame the whole situation as "not a zero sum game" if we are to achieve lasting peace!
2. You will not get me to defend Hamas. I just will not, do not want to - but this one thing I shall say: they are primarily, yes, Islamist, but a nationalist movement. One I do not care for. But, no, they do not want to "kill every Jew in the world" as their first priority - they want what they would frame as "their land back" and could not care less if 99% of, say, Queensland, Australia, was Jewish! Acknowledging this is, arguably, a good idea even just in the sense of "know your enemy" - one of the things I do for a living is: act as a trainer on sales negotiations. And one of the key lessons I keeo on reminding my trainees of is "put your pre-conceived notions aside! Be crystal clear on your strategic goals - and get an equally as clear understanding of theirs! And then: keep both in mind as you navigate towards an agreement!". I am not going to go into further detail on "history" - the whole PLO vs. Hamas and how ideologically evolving Israeli governments ... that is not ONE book, there is an entire PhD cohort in there!
3. The human rights record of the state of Israel - specifically opposite Palestinians - is actually quite disguisting, too (not elaborating, because I WILL get upset if I do!)

But, again! I thank you for being open to debating!

@HeidiInTheBigCity looks like I misread your post, my apologies! I've asked for mine to be deleted in light of that.

Sorry about that. A rare mistake proving it was bedtime last night! 🙈

@FreeCoathangers we could say the same thing for the president of Israel. It has been proven that he was notified and made very aware beforehand about the attacks being planned by Hamas and chose not to act. You're telling me that a country like Israel who closely monitors every single thing in Palestine even have surveillance everywhere and they had no idea what was happening. Stop letting mainstream media brainwash you. The president knew, but he let it happen so he could justify everything happening today and so everyone would say "oh it has a right to defend itself".

But the didn't ask anyone to take their land so it wasn't an 'offer' was it? If someone said I'll only take 10% of your garden it's a really good offer would you be like 'oh wow, fantastic offer, I'll still have 90% of my garden!' or would you be like wtf? Then when you say no they take it by force committing the genocide of your family(Nakba), end up with 90% and say its grand you still have the shed, you wouldn't be pissed off? Then they see that you're pissed off so they lock you into that shed, control everything you bring into your shed and you'd still be fine?

People are acting like they were so unreasonable to turn down the offer of someone taking their land off them for their exclusive use because they all used to live there together but I just don't see it. We aren't talking about way back in the crusades here, we are talking about a time when our grandparents or parents were alive. There is no way your parents would have accepted someone taking some of their garden for their sole use because way back in time their ansectors hailed from there. It just wouldn't have happened.

A third of Hamas rockets fail and drop before they leave the border.

You're spot on, @RoyalImpatience. Very important to be aware of our own emotions and how that can lead anyone to jumping to conclusions.

Worth repeating.

@Gruntsandgroans

If you know your history it's fhe people with nothing left to loose who are the ones who want to try. Because, they have nothing to loose

It is entirely reasonable to accept partition and its a reality in various places. It took 70 or so years for Irish Republicans to accept the principle of partition, principle of consent and the status of Northern Ireland as part of the UK, for example.

Had they accepted all that in the 1920s....things would have turned out very differently.

Palestinian leadership has rejected every peace deal ever tabled and have found other Arab leaders have become frustrated with them.

The alternative to any one of these peace deals is quite obvious - continued conflict and passing it on to the next generation.

Rinse and repeat.

It's an unsustainable position.

This is not so.🤦‍♂️

Already explained in some detail.

If you want I can show you an independent video of how and why Hamas were able to do what they did on the morning of the attack, from a tactical point of you it was a stunning, right up to the point they started massacring innocents. Do you know, for example, they dressed as IDF solders and practically got waved through guard points into compounds and outposts.

By the way, the guy is not Israeli and he does have a bit of a strange way of reporting. Warning, the video is age restricted so be careful

After sleeping on it, what I find sick is some people who wish to use the word genocide against a people who suffered an actual genocide.

They use it because they know how hurtful it is and the power of the word against Jews

If you think it's true, that Israel are committing a genocide, then you've been radicalised and you should think from where you're getting your info.

@Luckydip1

Yes it would and they would loose the world's support, they will become pariahs, every Jewish person around the world will become a target and it's an own goal.

So what's the motivation? Why?

However the pm spokesman said he couldn't rule it out but they were working to establish who was responsible. That's a considered measured approach.
What did hammas do, what was their reaction? Did they make a considered speech saying it might vr them because 40% of their rocket fail? But they are looking into it or did they just scream... Invader invader..

I suggest you read the Hamas Charter and then come back and state you were wrong about not wanting to kill every Jew on the face of the earth, it's literally what they start the document with.

@FreeCoathangers do you actually believe that a person from Brooklyn with no ties to that land whatsoever has the right to go there kick palestinians out of a home they owned for many years to live there ?

There are several videos of this a quite famous one with one settler saying if i don't do this someone else will !

How is this excused in the israeli community ? I am not hostile i am really trying to understand how can u justify that ?

Right but that doesn't make it reasonable. Many, many people seem to make out like it was a totally reasonable, great offer, like it was such a steal(pardon the pun) and they were crazy to refuse. I'm just saying that someone taking a % of your land in return for absolutely nothing doesn't seem so great to me and then taking it by force, carrying out Nakba , locking them in Gaza, doesn't make them seem like calm, reasonable ones in all of this to me. It makes them seem like the aggressors and the occupiers.

I am neither Jewish nor Muslim but I have done a lot of research over the last few days. Hamas came to power in 2006. Both sides, yes both sides have a terrible history in this conflict however if you look at the facts the Palestinians have historically been oppressed more by Israel than the other way round (the treatment of Palestinians over the years has been heavily criticized in writing internationally including by Amnesty and the UN Human Rights Council) and there have also been many more Palestinians that have died in the last 50 years than Israelis. Saying these things doesn't mean I support Hamas or condone what they did. There has also been no independent verification of where the rocket came from that destroyed the hospital. Both sides say it wasn't them and Israel has provided what they say is legitimate video evidence. Of course you can choose to believe which side you want without independent verification but i for one would prefer to hold my opinion on it for now. I also wouldn’t listen to anything Biden say as I think he is a total plonker.

Grunts we are talking at cross purposes. I'm talking about the evil strangle hold hammas has on gaza.
Hammas who steal aid, deny the people rights, torture people who speak out agaisnt them and kill them, keep the people in a state of poverty because it suits their narrative and who didn't like the new visa offered to palestinian to come into Israel.
If they can help to rid themselves of hammas that will be more helpful than anything else.

@IOnlycreatedaccountforthispost
Carry one the research then and look more at hammas and the impact it's had on gaza.

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