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Why won’t Egypt help the Gazans?

396 replies

antiterror · 13/10/2023 16:21

It seems the most if not the only logical solution, to set up refugee shelters in the Sinai peninsula?

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Beyondshock · 15/10/2023 00:34

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fioritura · 15/10/2023 00:43

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soddingspiderseason · 15/10/2023 00:44

Beyondshock · 15/10/2023 00:33

Is that right? Well, there’s most probably going to be a ground incursion. And the drs and patients haven’t left the hospital because it’s IMPOSSIBLE….. there’s no electricity there’s no water there’s no food. Whose salivating? Not only for land..but also for blood.

So now you're on the blood libel as well?

soddingspiderseason · 15/10/2023 00:46

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Yes, there are new Nazis. The ones intent on killing all Jews. Hamas committed atrocities. Rape, torture, murder. What do you expect Israel to do? Seriously.

FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper · 15/10/2023 01:49

Genuine question: when Hamas say they want to wipe 'Israel' off the map - and Israel's actions might well suggest that they want to do the same with Palestine/Gaza - have they actually confirmed that they want all of the people who live there to be wiped out as well? Or is it their way of stating that they utterly reject the legitimacy/safety of the current nation/regime being in charge of it?

Subsequently, when recent polls (assuming they are unbiased) find half or more of Gazans - presumably just the adults; in fact, do we know if they equally poll the women, and are they socially 'allowed' to express their own opinions? - 'support' Hamas... even if we accept that Hamas is a full-blown terrorist organisation, does that mean that half of ordinary Gazans support the terroristic activities of Hamas, or does it mean that they believe only Hamas can bring them the human freedoms of not effectively living refugees in their own land - as a great many Gazans (and their international supporters/advocates) view it - however distressing or necessary the methods that they employ to achieve this?

I know it's not the same thing in a number of factors, but I'm looking at parallels with Northern Ireland - and before that, what is now the Republic of Ireland, but was part of what is now the United Kingdom a century ago.

As far as I'm aware, nobody in authority on the island of Ireland has ever sought to 'wipe England/Scotland/Wales off the map' - but they did/many in NI still do (not at all unjustly imho) categorically reject the right/legitimacy of a London-led power to have rule/authority in Ireland - especially when that rule led to things such as the Potato 'Famine' (using inverted commas, as the word traditionally refers to naturally-occurring disasters) and decisions made very much with the interests of the inhabitants of Great Britain at the forefront and thus the interests of the inhabitants of (the island of) Ireland overlooked/ignored (at best) and subjugated/crushed (at worst).

As the well-known saying goes, about one person's terrorist being another person's freedom-fighter (see also South Africa and Nelson Mandela), many people in NI did support the IRA's AIMS, even if they didn't want them to be achieved through deaths of innocent people; but if you feel subjugated to the extent that you see no other option, it does rather muddy the moral waters and make it far more complex than simply 'these are unquestionably terrorists, and therefore the unequivocal evil people - which makes everybody who opposes them automatically the good people'.

Back to the Potato 'Famine', it was deliberately engineered in the undeniable knowledge that it would lead to the deaths of a huge number of innocent people. Maybe those with the wealth, power and widely-imputed legitimacy can make just as calculated evil decisions as the other side, but because they don't necessarily go in with guns and bombs and use much more subtle means to achieve the same or similar results, they are ubiquitously considered the 'good guys'.

Winston Churchill held views and made (arguably difficult and/or necessary) far-reaching, deadly decisions (and I'm not even referring to those involving Germany or other Europeans) that many would see as betraying a cold, ruthless and deeply misanthropic (as long as those people were not British) mindset not a million miles away from that of those multi-laterally considered to be 'terrorists' - but people nowadays don't generally consider Churchill in any way to have been a terrorist; indeed, just two decades ago, he was voted as 'The Greatest Briton' of all-time.

Much more recently, into the 21st century, we have the situation whereby Bush Jr, fully supported by Blair, invaded Iraq and Afghanistan - justified on the back of the (officially-confirmed) actions of a group of Saudi nationals and what has since been officially admitted to have been a deliberately politically falsified dossier of 'facts' (i.e. fictions). As a direct result of these lies, a great many British (and international) people consider Blair to be a war criminal and deserving of imprisonment; although this view is categorically not shared by the UK or US establishments, which have showered honours on him in their recognition of his achievements.

(Much) TL;DR: Although maybe seen as a 'cliché', the observation of the same person/group/government being controversially perceived as either a terrorist/evil or as a freedom-fighter/on the right side of history is as true as ever it was; and the subsequent categorisation of ordinary people as either 'supporting terror' or 'supporting peace and/or justice' is an extremely complex and nuanced - and thus potentially very misleading - assertion to make.

Sorry, the TL;DR wasn't especially short either.

Heelenahandbasket · 15/10/2023 02:20

fioritura · 15/10/2023 00:32

Why do people do this like I can’t just hop on google and bring the receipts?

Israel threatened to bomb aid:

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231010-israel-threatens-to-bomb-egypt-aid-trucks-heading-to-gaza/amp/

No deal reached to send aid in, get US citizens out:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/more-aid-flights-arrive-egypts-sinai-awaiting-passage-gaza-2023-10-14/

why don’t you read your own sources or google anything about them. The Reuters source says nothing at all about israel bombing aid trucks or allowing out U.S. citizens. The other source you’ve posted is “Middle East monitor” a mouthpiece for Hamas. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Monitor

google is no substitute for basic intelligence nor will it help you cover up your virulent anti semitism.

Middle East Monitor - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Monitor

fioritura · 15/10/2023 03:11

Heelenahandbasket · 15/10/2023 02:20

why don’t you read your own sources or google anything about them. The Reuters source says nothing at all about israel bombing aid trucks or allowing out U.S. citizens. The other source you’ve posted is “Middle East monitor” a mouthpiece for Hamas. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Monitor

google is no substitute for basic intelligence nor will it help you cover up your virulent anti semitism.

Reuters: “Two Egyptian security sources said the planned evacuation of some people in Gaza holding foreign passports had been held up because of the lack of any deal being negotiated with Israel and the United States to send aid into the enclave.”

Sinai for Human Rights (a non-governmental human rights group) within the MEM article: “The Sinai Foundation obtained an exclusive footages confirming the blocking of Egyptian fuel trucks and humanitarian aids from access to the Rafah land crossing -borders after Israel issued a warning to the Egyptian authorities that if it brought relief supplies into the Gaza Strip, the trucks would be bombed.”

They can’t send the aid in because it will be bombed. Egypt tried to make a deal that it will open the border for the US to bring its citizens out (Reuters) if they can make a deal with Israel to not bomb the trucks.

Israel has still refused to allow aid through and the bomb threat still stands. US still trying to negotiate to get their citizens out but Egypt rightly won’t back down. There are ambulances and aid trucks lined up at the border waiting for a deal to be made whilst Palestinians have no water, food or medical supplies. So antisemitic of me to point that out, sorry.

PurpleChrayne · 15/10/2023 04:18

I'm looking forward to seeing a swath of British people opening their homes to refugees, making good on all of the "Free Palestine" sentiment.q

BelleHathor · 15/10/2023 07:03

fioritura · 15/10/2023 00:17

They’re so brazen! Straight up “that’s a lie” like there isn’t multiple official sources online to back up what I’m saying…

It is brazen and deliberate misinformation that relies on ordinary people being too busy with life to actually fact check.

Though saying that the general public is starting to see what's happening to civilians and is disgusted.

Efacsen · 15/10/2023 07:42

BelleHathor · 15/10/2023 07:03

It is brazen and deliberate misinformation that relies on ordinary people being too busy with life to actually fact check.

Though saying that the general public is starting to see what's happening to civilians and is disgusted.

The threat to bomb aid convoys came from an official Egyptian spokesperson last Sunday or Monday and was reported in the Guardian, within a few minutes an IDF spokesperson said it wasn't true

Given that there has been so much bombing around the Rafah crossing and that the US hasn't been able to negotiate freeing it's citizens from Gaza in return for aid into Gaza I'm inclined to believe that safe passage of aid convoys isn't supported by the Israeli government as it would break their siege

The Guardians fact-checking is generally pretty good eg only reported the bombing of evacuating women and children after it was corroborated by NBC - an hour after it was originally reported by other agencies

Angrycat2768 · 15/10/2023 08:35

FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper · 15/10/2023 01:49

Genuine question: when Hamas say they want to wipe 'Israel' off the map - and Israel's actions might well suggest that they want to do the same with Palestine/Gaza - have they actually confirmed that they want all of the people who live there to be wiped out as well? Or is it their way of stating that they utterly reject the legitimacy/safety of the current nation/regime being in charge of it?

Subsequently, when recent polls (assuming they are unbiased) find half or more of Gazans - presumably just the adults; in fact, do we know if they equally poll the women, and are they socially 'allowed' to express their own opinions? - 'support' Hamas... even if we accept that Hamas is a full-blown terrorist organisation, does that mean that half of ordinary Gazans support the terroristic activities of Hamas, or does it mean that they believe only Hamas can bring them the human freedoms of not effectively living refugees in their own land - as a great many Gazans (and their international supporters/advocates) view it - however distressing or necessary the methods that they employ to achieve this?

I know it's not the same thing in a number of factors, but I'm looking at parallels with Northern Ireland - and before that, what is now the Republic of Ireland, but was part of what is now the United Kingdom a century ago.

As far as I'm aware, nobody in authority on the island of Ireland has ever sought to 'wipe England/Scotland/Wales off the map' - but they did/many in NI still do (not at all unjustly imho) categorically reject the right/legitimacy of a London-led power to have rule/authority in Ireland - especially when that rule led to things such as the Potato 'Famine' (using inverted commas, as the word traditionally refers to naturally-occurring disasters) and decisions made very much with the interests of the inhabitants of Great Britain at the forefront and thus the interests of the inhabitants of (the island of) Ireland overlooked/ignored (at best) and subjugated/crushed (at worst).

As the well-known saying goes, about one person's terrorist being another person's freedom-fighter (see also South Africa and Nelson Mandela), many people in NI did support the IRA's AIMS, even if they didn't want them to be achieved through deaths of innocent people; but if you feel subjugated to the extent that you see no other option, it does rather muddy the moral waters and make it far more complex than simply 'these are unquestionably terrorists, and therefore the unequivocal evil people - which makes everybody who opposes them automatically the good people'.

Back to the Potato 'Famine', it was deliberately engineered in the undeniable knowledge that it would lead to the deaths of a huge number of innocent people. Maybe those with the wealth, power and widely-imputed legitimacy can make just as calculated evil decisions as the other side, but because they don't necessarily go in with guns and bombs and use much more subtle means to achieve the same or similar results, they are ubiquitously considered the 'good guys'.

Winston Churchill held views and made (arguably difficult and/or necessary) far-reaching, deadly decisions (and I'm not even referring to those involving Germany or other Europeans) that many would see as betraying a cold, ruthless and deeply misanthropic (as long as those people were not British) mindset not a million miles away from that of those multi-laterally considered to be 'terrorists' - but people nowadays don't generally consider Churchill in any way to have been a terrorist; indeed, just two decades ago, he was voted as 'The Greatest Briton' of all-time.

Much more recently, into the 21st century, we have the situation whereby Bush Jr, fully supported by Blair, invaded Iraq and Afghanistan - justified on the back of the (officially-confirmed) actions of a group of Saudi nationals and what has since been officially admitted to have been a deliberately politically falsified dossier of 'facts' (i.e. fictions). As a direct result of these lies, a great many British (and international) people consider Blair to be a war criminal and deserving of imprisonment; although this view is categorically not shared by the UK or US establishments, which have showered honours on him in their recognition of his achievements.

(Much) TL;DR: Although maybe seen as a 'cliché', the observation of the same person/group/government being controversially perceived as either a terrorist/evil or as a freedom-fighter/on the right side of history is as true as ever it was; and the subsequent categorisation of ordinary people as either 'supporting terror' or 'supporting peace and/or justice' is an extremely complex and nuanced - and thus potentially very misleading - assertion to make.

Sorry, the TL;DR wasn't especially short either.

Edited

It doesn't seem possible to find an unbiased translation of the Hamas charter, but they certainly mention wiping Jews from the Islamic lands, and driving Israel into the sea. Whether that means by killing all Jews on the land (considering they went into Israel and massacred children and old women, I'm assuming they aren't really interested in peaceful evacuation of Israel or for Jews to live peacefully among Muslims on a Muslim controlled land) This is unlikely considering Hamas are Islamists in the same vein as the Iranian government and the Taliban, who persecute and kill Muslims in their own countries for being women, for being Gay, or for speaking out against them. However, the Israeli government have played into Hamas and Iran's hands. There was going to be a treaty between Saudi Arabia and Israel, which would have mean Saudi Arabia and probably consequently other Arab countries recognising Israel. Iran and Hamas don't want that. They absolutely knew that Palestinians would be wiped out following their actions. Because they don't care about Palestinians, it was a price worth paying. The Israeli government has reacted in a way Iran and Hamas expected and wanted. Who knows what will now happen in the Middle East as a result of this. But the Israeli government has gone way over the top on this and has given Iran and Hamas exactly what they want. The destruction of Palestine and a resultant Holy War with other Arab states.

Needspace2023 · 15/10/2023 08:58

Yes Hamas want to destroy Israel, so do Hezbollah, ISIS, IRGC, Muslim Brotherhood etc etc

What is Israel supposed to do?

Can Iran or Qatar or anyone with leverage tell Hamas to surrender the hostages and themselves to save Palestinian innocent babies and others?

Of course they can't! Your dealing with savage cold blooded terrorists.

A lot of people need to wake up....

BelleHathor · 15/10/2023 09:17

Efacsen · 15/10/2023 07:42

The threat to bomb aid convoys came from an official Egyptian spokesperson last Sunday or Monday and was reported in the Guardian, within a few minutes an IDF spokesperson said it wasn't true

Given that there has been so much bombing around the Rafah crossing and that the US hasn't been able to negotiate freeing it's citizens from Gaza in return for aid into Gaza I'm inclined to believe that safe passage of aid convoys isn't supported by the Israeli government as it would break their siege

The Guardians fact-checking is generally pretty good eg only reported the bombing of evacuating women and children after it was corroborated by NBC - an hour after it was originally reported by other agencies

Absolutely and Israel not keeping its promise is cruel beyond belief. It was a ruse to give Western Governments cover by making it look like Israel is allowing humanitarian corridors.

Needspace2023 · 15/10/2023 09:24

When people protest in masses in Israel like they have against Netanyahu all of this year, do they get killed, tortured, raped? Incarcerated??
Do Israelis have to worry about how they dress, if they party or if they are gay? If a woman wants to have equal rights to a man.
No they don't!
People need to grow up and understand Israel has a right to defend itself from Savage terrorism and the people of Gaza and many conjures in the region are not free.
I repeat, can ANYONE reason with Hamas to surrender rand spare anyone?

No , that's impossible. They are TERRORISTS and human life means nothing.

Heelenahandbasket · 15/10/2023 11:28

fioritura · 15/10/2023 03:11

Reuters: “Two Egyptian security sources said the planned evacuation of some people in Gaza holding foreign passports had been held up because of the lack of any deal being negotiated with Israel and the United States to send aid into the enclave.”

Sinai for Human Rights (a non-governmental human rights group) within the MEM article: “The Sinai Foundation obtained an exclusive footages confirming the blocking of Egyptian fuel trucks and humanitarian aids from access to the Rafah land crossing -borders after Israel issued a warning to the Egyptian authorities that if it brought relief supplies into the Gaza Strip, the trucks would be bombed.”

They can’t send the aid in because it will be bombed. Egypt tried to make a deal that it will open the border for the US to bring its citizens out (Reuters) if they can make a deal with Israel to not bomb the trucks.

Israel has still refused to allow aid through and the bomb threat still stands. US still trying to negotiate to get their citizens out but Egypt rightly won’t back down. There are ambulances and aid trucks lined up at the border waiting for a deal to be made whilst Palestinians have no water, food or medical supplies. So antisemitic of me to point that out, sorry.

if there’s no deal for aid - that’s an entirely different thing from your anti semitic claim that Israel is blocking aid. It isn’t. Stop letting your prejudice blind you.

Again “Mem” is a Hamas mouthpiece. Hamas is very adept at propaganda. You can’t take anything they say at face value no matter how much you hate Jews.

Heelenahandbasket · 15/10/2023 11:41

BelleHathor · 15/10/2023 07:03

It is brazen and deliberate misinformation that relies on ordinary people being too busy with life to actually fact check.

Though saying that the general public is starting to see what's happening to civilians and is disgusted.

The claim that Israel is refusing to allow us passport holders out of the rafah crossing and that Israel will bomb aid convoys is deliberate misinformation spread by Hamas.

The rafah crossing is not even controlled by israel- rather by Egypt and by Hamas. Hamas are currently openly holding a number of women children and old people as hostages. Why does anyone think it’s israel holding up letting out third country nationals when those are the facts?

fioritura · 15/10/2023 11:42

Heelenahandbasket · 15/10/2023 11:28

if there’s no deal for aid - that’s an entirely different thing from your anti semitic claim that Israel is blocking aid. It isn’t. Stop letting your prejudice blind you.

Again “Mem” is a Hamas mouthpiece. Hamas is very adept at propaganda. You can’t take anything they say at face value no matter how much you hate Jews.

I despair. THERE IS NO DEAL FOR AID BECAUSE ISRAEL SAID NO DEAL TO NOT BOMBING THE TRUCKS IF THEY PASS.

That is why US citizens are still in Gaza, because Egypt won’t open the crossing until the US can get Israel to guarantee they won’t bomb them.

If you take the bomb threats out of the equation, then the negotiations between the US, Egypt and Israel would be non-existent. There would be nothing to negotiate with Israel - Egypt could just open the crossing for US citizens and let the hundreds of waiting aid trucks pass?

Heelenahandbasket · 15/10/2023 11:42

BelleHathor · 15/10/2023 09:17

Absolutely and Israel not keeping its promise is cruel beyond belief. It was a ruse to give Western Governments cover by making it look like Israel is allowing humanitarian corridors.

What promise? What are you talking about?

Heelenahandbasket · 15/10/2023 11:44

fioritura · 15/10/2023 11:42

I despair. THERE IS NO DEAL FOR AID BECAUSE ISRAEL SAID NO DEAL TO NOT BOMBING THE TRUCKS IF THEY PASS.

That is why US citizens are still in Gaza, because Egypt won’t open the crossing until the US can get Israel to guarantee they won’t bomb them.

If you take the bomb threats out of the equation, then the negotiations between the US, Egypt and Israel would be non-existent. There would be nothing to negotiate with Israel - Egypt could just open the crossing for US citizens and let the hundreds of waiting aid trucks pass?

i despair. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT ANYTHING YOU SAY IS TRUE. THE ONLY SOURCE YOU CITE IS HAMAS.

Heelenahandbasket · 15/10/2023 11:46

fioritura · 15/10/2023 11:42

I despair. THERE IS NO DEAL FOR AID BECAUSE ISRAEL SAID NO DEAL TO NOT BOMBING THE TRUCKS IF THEY PASS.

That is why US citizens are still in Gaza, because Egypt won’t open the crossing until the US can get Israel to guarantee they won’t bomb them.

If you take the bomb threats out of the equation, then the negotiations between the US, Egypt and Israel would be non-existent. There would be nothing to negotiate with Israel - Egypt could just open the crossing for US citizens and let the hundreds of waiting aid trucks pass?

And this also shows how daft you are too. Egypt closed the Rafah crossing as they often do. Why do you think Hamas will let some us citizens out when they are holding hostages?

fioritura · 15/10/2023 11:49

Heelenahandbasket · 15/10/2023 11:41

The claim that Israel is refusing to allow us passport holders out of the rafah crossing and that Israel will bomb aid convoys is deliberate misinformation spread by Hamas.

The rafah crossing is not even controlled by israel- rather by Egypt and by Hamas. Hamas are currently openly holding a number of women children and old people as hostages. Why does anyone think it’s israel holding up letting out third country nationals when those are the facts?

Ok you’re starting to get it - yes, Egypt controls the Rafah crossing. They could let aid in and US citizens out right now if they wanted to, however:

The US asked Egypt to open the crossing to let US citizens out.

Egypt said sure, but you need to negotiate with Israel first to ensure all aid going in won’t be bombed.

Israel said no, aid trucks will be bombed.

Egypt refuses to let the US citizens out because aid can’t get in.

US still negotiating with Israel to guarantee no bombing so that it’s citizens can cross through.

The only reason Isreal are a part of this conversation is because of the bomb threats.

fioritura · 15/10/2023 11:51

Heelenahandbasket · 15/10/2023 11:46

And this also shows how daft you are too. Egypt closed the Rafah crossing as they often do. Why do you think Hamas will let some us citizens out when they are holding hostages?

They’re not US hostages, they’re US citizens waiting at the border waiting to pass! Hamas has nothing to do with this 🤦🏽‍♀️

fioritura · 15/10/2023 11:57

I’m just going to repeat this and then leave the conversation because I believe you’re being deliberately obtuse.

Reuters: “Two Egyptian security sources said the planned evacuation of some people in Gaza holding foreign passports had been held up because of the lack of any deal being negotiated with Israel and the United States to send aid into the enclave.

Needspace2023 · 15/10/2023 12:13

fioritura · 15/10/2023 11:51

They’re not US hostages, they’re US citizens waiting at the border waiting to pass! Hamas has nothing to do with this 🤦🏽‍♀️

Hamas has nothing to do with this you say. Hamas never ever hides in schools and mosques and shields behind innocent children
The apologies you make for this Terrorist group are unbelievable.
Blind spots everywhere!
Hamas need to surrender now to spare Gazans, but they will not!
Israel cannot sit back and be attacked again like they were.

Who can you suggest can talk to Hamas leaders to bring in a ceasefire?

fioritura · 15/10/2023 12:17

Needspace2023 · 15/10/2023 12:13

Hamas has nothing to do with this you say. Hamas never ever hides in schools and mosques and shields behind innocent children
The apologies you make for this Terrorist group are unbelievable.
Blind spots everywhere!
Hamas need to surrender now to spare Gazans, but they will not!
Israel cannot sit back and be attacked again like they were.

Who can you suggest can talk to Hamas leaders to bring in a ceasefire?

Of course Hamas is directly involved with the overall situation but in regards to the US/Egypt/Israel negotiations about the passing of US citizens and aid trucks waiting at the Rafah crossing - no, Hamas is not involved. Israel wouldn’t even need to be involved if they were not threatening to bomb the trucks, Egypt could just open the border.