Why won’t Egypt help the Gazans?

[antiterror]

It seems the most if not the only logical solution, to set up refugee shelters in the Sinai peninsula?

Hold Hamas accountable, support innocent Palestinians. Blaming all for Hamas's actions, especially when half of Palestinian population are children, is unjust. Fight anti-Jewish sentiment, avoid hatred.

With regards to comments questioning why they are continuing to reproduce given that they are occupied/at war, Religious communities (The Amish, Catholics, Orthodox Jews etc etc) place very high value on procreation.

It is possible that the lack of access to family planning and concerns over genocide have contributed to this perspective, but generally speaking Religious ppl strongly prioritise family and child-rearing to preserve their faith and cultural identities. Whereas secular societies tend to prioritize individualism and personal freedom. Hence the freefalling birth rates in secular nations, quite a serious issue actually.

we have hit an all time historic low with population growth. Religious communities flourish while we seem to have opted out of parenthood. This + suddenly importing thousands and thousands of people from very religious communities (West Africa, M.E) will probably have long-term implications for cultural values of western Europe moving forward. Could a future Britain see the rise of an Anglo-Arab Muslim society? It doesn't seem totally implausible at this point.

Religious people look poised to inherit the earth with high birth rates: Muslims lead with 3.1 kids per woman, followed by Christians at 2.7. Israel's 2.9 rate dwarfs Canada's 1.5.

I guess we better figure out a way to get along.

You haven’t provided any links to show that when the Rafah crossing was open, that any humanitarian aid was let through. So how can I accept that?

*That meant to say:
Blaming all for Hamas's actions on Palestinian civilians, especially when half of Palestinian population are children, is unjust.

Who's blaming every Palestinian for Hamas' actions?

The reality is a clear majority support Hamas. Additionally, there's almost universal Palestinian support for various terrorist groups as well as just over two-thirds support for forming more in West Bank.

There is, unfortunately, overlap.

When Hamas formed in 1987, they had minimal support from Palestinians. But in 2021, support for Hamas dramatically increased as AP News reported:

apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

In 2022, respected Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki and his Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) carried out a survey looking at Palestinian support for armed groups. Main takeaways below:

• 72% of Palestinians support forming more armed groups in West Bank

• in Gaza, 84% of respondents supported concept of armed groups taking NO orders from the Palestinian Authority. This is HIGHER than in the West Bank where 65% supported the idea.

www.pcpsr.org/en/node/924

And:

"....there is widespread popular appeal for competing armed Palestinian factions, including those involved in the attack. Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)—though this is fewer than those who support Fatah (64%).

But it is organizations like Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and Lion’s Den that receive the most widespread popular support in Gaza. About three quarters of Gazans express support for both groups, including 40% who see the Lion’s Den in a “very positive” light, an attitude shared by a similar percentage of West Bank residents."

www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah#:~:text=Overall%2C%2057%25%20of%20Gazans%20express,who%20support%20Fatah%20(64%25).

So, the support for Hamas, Lion's Den and other Palestinian armed groups is there from the Palestinian population. A minority do not support them.

Important to note that Abbas' Fatah party also has an armed wing - Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. So, there is a LOT of Palestinian support for terrorist groups overall.

So, not all Palestinians support Hamas. But it is NOT wrong to say that a majority of Palestinians support terrorist groups.

@Asthebellcurves
”Posters were (and some still are) insisting they’re also forcing Egypt and others to cease any provision of assistance when actually that was the decision of other states.”

What other states? The US and Egypt have said they want to send in aid. BBC reported in the 12:57 BST link I posted that:
”Egypt's foreign minister said Israel has yet to take a stance to allow the crossing to open.
And Benjamin Netanyahu's office has denied reports of a ceasefire that would have facilitated the opening of the crossing.
Meanwhile, the US Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, has arrived in Israel to discuss allowing aid supplies into Gaza as desperation grows for food, medicine and fuel.”

That combined with the earlier posts that Israel controls all goods (including aid) that crosses the Egypt border into Gaza as it wants to inspect them.

Reuters have been monitoring the crossing from the outset - no humanitarian aid in and no US and other passport holders out

Thank you. @Asthebellcurves stated some aid had come through but hasn’t provided a source that definitely states that. They posted a link from a Chinese news source about the empty fuel trucks waiting on the Gaza side of the Rafah crossing.

I see no evidence you read them when they are provided. As you know, and you’re free to look this up yourself, the crossing closed five days ago. The conflict has been going on for eight days. Eight is bigger than five, so we know there were three (8-5=3) days the crossing was open.

I note you don’t want to concede the fact that Hamas have plentiful tunnels to smuggle food in alongside all their weapons and terrorists, so I think your disingenuous participation means this will never be a fruitful conversation.

Absolutely agree with that!

My issue is all the disinformation about "carpet bombing" and "ethnic cleansing". Israel experienced a horrific massacre by Hamas and now THEY are the ones who are playing the victim and hiding among innocent Palestiniand civilians.
Hamas has ordered the population to stay put out of fear of "ethnic cleansing", another Nakba. They are cowards! They need to give themselves up, hand over hostages. People with leverage must tell them to surrender.
Israel can't just sit and wait for another attack.
Can you imagine how vulnerable the people in Israel feel surrounded by so much hostility and then to experience the most gruesome massacre possible?
I'm sorry but I feel propaganda has completely dehumanised Israelis and Jews. Anti Semitism.
Yes I also see those that have completed dehumanised people on the MENA who are Muslims.
Please can the world just come together and say terrorism is WRONG and we will find you and hunt you down together regardless of any religion or being atheist.

I haven’t acknowledged the tunnels because according to the IDF they’d bombed them all?

You stated that even over opposition by Israeli ministers and the PM Netanhyu himself that was expressed yesterday, that some aid had still been let through. When I asked for evidence of aid having been let through, you then deflected to last week! And still haven’t provided evidence that any humanitarian aid was let through even then.

I agree the discussion will not be fruitful as you seem to not providing anything to corroborate your claims. It’s pointless to discuss the events of this war when one poster just says whatever, whenever without fact checking and then refuses to acknowledge the sources and facts posted by other posters.

I saw that. Very moved by his gesture of humanity in all this.

I stand with humanity and I say stop killing 100 babies a day to get to Hamas.

Moving on. Israel Times reported this:
”Yisrael Beytenu leader Avigdor Liberman calls for making humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip contingent upon a Red Cross welfare check upon hostages taken by Hamas to the Gaza Strip on October 7.
Addressing himself to “everyone who speaks now about humanitarian aid,” he demands that it be “provisioned that they get don’t get one crumb, that one liter of water won’t be transferred until the Red Cross sees our abductees.”

This sounds like a fair offer to me?

@TrailingLoellia It would be a good thing, if there are any aid workers left, to ensure that hostages are alive. However, my understanding is that humanitarian aid is a legal obligation and not something one can do bargains around. One can't punish people who had nothing to do with hostage taking - e,g, newborns-and agree to stop if your conditions are met. Hamas should release the hostages, of course, but it isn't legal to punish civilians because they won't.

I think it would too after all it is humanitarian aid (Red Cross welfare check) for the hostages in concert with humanitarian aid to Gazan civilians.

Neither can really be denied under international law.

It’s a legitimate concern that any aid given to Gaza could be withheld from the hostages. So someone, like Red Cross, should be able to go in with the aid and check the hostages and flag up any mistreatment.

Problem is that Lieberman isn’t on the Israel war council and so this is his advice to them.

Sorry my autocorrect added an e in Liberman’s name

@TrailingLoellia I agree it's a good idea and a small step to recognising the humanity of all caught up in these horrendous events. I think small steps like this may be more measured and help to shift the volatility of the situation, rather than the current wholesale attacks.

Agreed. It's a reasonable request.

the Egyptian border with gaza is controlled by Israel. The fact that most people on mumsnet seems to be unaware of it, is baffling to say the least.

people are trying to leave gaza, including people with british/Canadian etc. passports or with family members who are citizens of various western countries and have visas prepared for their (often elderly or otherwise vulnerable relatives) in gaza. but the Israeli checkpoints do not let them pass.

also pushing the gazans into sinai has always been a plan and then they will never be allowed back. and that is textbook ethnic cleansing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68650815

Actually it's Egypt who won't let the Palestinians into their country to safety.

The Israelis would welcome Palestinians leaving Gaza and moving into Egypt (as it's unlikely they'll return to Gaza). That's the crux of the issue. It's the approach Arab countries take to supporting Palestinians - in situ, not in exile.

This is a thought-provoking article about these double standards - every human has the right to seek asylum, except Palestinians.

Palestinians in Gaza - do they have a right to seek asylum elsewhere?

Urgh, I predicted this months ago. Prime seafront land. I'm sickened. I hope they think all the deaths are worth it.