Why won’t Egypt help the Gazans?

[antiterror]

It seems the most if not the only logical solution, to set up refugee shelters in the Sinai peninsula?

Nobody wants them

I just can't help feeling isreal is falling into some sort of trap.

Why were hostages taken, to lure isreal in.
To get them to cross onto isreal soil, and then iran can enter the war?

It feels like a much bigger plan is at foot here and unfortunately isreal is doing it's part.

Yes, that's true, and that suggests an attack rather than an accident (which the second one could conceivably have been if the van had been carrying ammunition). It could even have been a missile; a significant number of missiles fired by both sides have gone astray or fallen short. People with more experience than me don't think that the footage the BBC saw of the aftermath looks like an airstrike (as the road isn't damaged), but I don't really know what to believe any more.

Really, not everyone is obligated to take in every single immigrant or terrorist group just because. I don’t care about them. Don’t wanna take them. In case people haven’t noticed, multiculturalism isn’t working all that great.

Blinky21 they gave them 24 hours notice to leave, like usual, but Hamas would rather keep their own people as human grief shields.

Paper flower tra la la skipping to their Lou, soon the men come skipping along after them. Fuck them, people are sick and tired of taking on the backwards evil men in the world. We don’t need any more problems . They hate us they hate the women and they want us dead.

BBC are calling HAMAS fighters, not terrorists.

The BBC seems to have issues with what words to use.

Jake Sullivan national security advisor to the WH saying on CNN that water was turned back on in S Gaza on Friday

Surely good news

The Israelis are clearly talking to their allies about what the West will regard as a breach of international law. Hence passage granted and extended deadlines, water back on.

Grim as it sounds, Israel can fight an aggressive war and be on the right side of the law but that doesn't mean adhering to how life was in Gaza before.

Yet the clear, clear majority of the Palestinian population supports Hamas and other terrorist groups.

Groups whose stated aim is to destroy Israel.

There is a clear and demonstrable overlap there.

No TV news organisations are doing this. Presumably its because their reporters have a visible presence in Gaza and can be easily identified from the TV. Just because the Daily Mail care more about their anti BBC agenda than they do about their fellow journalists doesn't mean the BBC should put their staff at risk

Agree.

So by using the word terrorist the BBC are putting their staff at risk?

CNN and Sky are calling them terrorists.

Everybody but the BBC does.

And what's that to do with the Daily Mail?

I didnt realise they were now, but they weren't at the start. The DM was concentrating on the BBC at the start of this when all broadcast news organisations had the same policy.

BBC's John Simpson points to BBC's founding principles and says "We don't take sides".

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67083432.amp

This can be a problem as it can lead to False Equivalence and False Balance Logical Fallacies. It can create the impression that two opposing views are of equal validity when it's not necessarily the case.

See a cheeky screenshot on that.

I don’t think they explicitly support Hamas, I think they support whoever is fighting against the oppressive regime and its supporters that has persecuted and killed them for as long as they can remember.

And what are you basing your opinion on, @fioritura?

When Hamas formed in 1987, they had minimal support from Palestinians. But in 2021, support for Hamas dramatically increased as AP News reported:

apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

In 2022, respected Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki and his Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) carried out a survey looking at Palestinian support for armed groups. Main takeaways below:

• 72% of Palestinians support forming more armed groups in West Bank

• in Gaza, 84% of respondents supported concept of armed groups taking NO orders from the Palestinian Authority. This is HIGHER than in the West Bank where 65% supported the idea.

www.pcpsr.org/en/node/924

And:

"....there is widespread popular appeal for competing armed Palestinian factions, including those involved in the attack. Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)—though this is fewer than those who support Fatah (64%).

But it is organizations like Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and Lion’s Den that receive the most widespread popular support in Gaza. About three quarters of Gazans express support for both groups, including 40% who see the Lion’s Den in a “very positive” light, an attitude shared by a similar percentage of West Bank residents."

www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah#:~:text=Overall%2C%2057%25%20of%20Gazans%20express,who%20support%20Fatah%20(64%25).

So, the support for Hamas, Lion's Den and other Palestinian armed groups is there from the Palestinian population. A small minority do not support them.

Important to note that Abbas' Fatah party also has an armed wing - Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. So, there is a LOT of Palestinian support for terrorist groups overall.

So, not all Palestinians support Hamas. But it is NOT wrong to say that a majority of Palestinians support terrorist groups.

I’m not disagreeing with you. I said that many Gazans don’t explicitly support Hamas because they fully agree with their charter or actions, they support them because they support any resistance against the regime that’s oppressing them and Hamas are currently their only hope for change. As you said, support is also high for PIJ and Lions Den.

Gazans want to experience freedom, they’ll support anyone who fights their oppressors. It’s either that or be trapped and persecuted forever.

@DownNative unfortunately they are all very young and many have never known any other type of control.
They have lived under an oppressive and useless authoritarian regime since 2006.

I wonder what Israel plan to do with the Gazan people once they've all either been killed or forced to move south. Are they going to have to exist on an even smaller patch of land in a refugee camp or something?

Gazans expect death at any time. Sit back and be killed simply for existing. Protest peacefully and be killed for daring to ask for rights. Support resistance and get killed during the resistance. Many accept their death as a means for long term change for the future generations of their people.

https://www.btselem.org/2014_gaza_conflict/en/

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/31/weary-angry-gazans-bury-dead-after-deadly-border-conflict

This is awful. Absolutely sickening. I just don't know what to say anymore. I just hope Egypt allow them through the border.

In a sense, you ARE disagreeing with me.

Have you given much thought to why it is Gaza Strip that is under a lot of surveillance and control?

It's not done for fun or the hell of it.

You don't appear to see the problem with Gaza in the context of an occupation for whatever reason.

"Security in the area around Rafah is also of concern to Egypt because Sinai has been the site of an Islamist insurgency that flared a decade ago. Hamas, which has run the Gaza Strip since 2007, shares the Islamist ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood, a movement outlawed in Egypt."

And:

"Hamas' deadly attack on southern Israel six days ago - unprecedented for the group in its planning and scale - was a devastating demonstration of the military expertise it has gained since seizing control of Gaza in 2007....

Necessity is the mother of invention," said Ali Baraka, a senior Hamas official, adding that the group had long drawn on money and training from Iran and Iranian regional proxies like Lebanon's Hezbollah, while bolstering its own forces in Gaza.

Difficulties in importing weapons meant that over the past nine years "we developed our capabilities and are able to manufacture locally", said Baraka, who is based in Lebanon....

In the 2008 Gaza war, Hamas rockets had a maximum range of 40 km (25 miles), but that had risen to 230 km by the 2021 conflict, he added.

After the most recent Gaza war in 2021, Hamas and an affiliated group called Palestinian Islamic Jihad managed to retain 40% of their missile inventories, a key target of the Israelis, according to the U.S. based non-profit Jewish Institute for National Security of America, keeping roughly 11,750 missiles compared with 23,000 before the conflict."

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/bombardments-hit-area-gaza-sinai-border-crossing-gaza-officials-2023-10-10/

So, as a result of Israel Defense Force pulling out of Gaza in 2005, Hamas ended up in power just two years later. And increasingly improved their weapons capabilities whilst increasing their total membership from 10,000 in 1990 to 40,000 in 2023.

It's quite clear that Israeli withdrawal from Gaza made things worse from a National Security perspective.

Not better.

You're essentially arguing a Circular Reasoning case for the Palestinian majority who support terrorist groups.

But the reality is none of them will be free as long as any of these Palestinian terrorist groups have control of Gaza or support them. Neither Egypt or Israel are comfortable with Palestinian support for terrorist groups.

The only way out for Palestinians in Gaza is to stop supporting multiple terrorist groups who are intent on trying to murder Israelis.

How is killing more innocents protecting themselves @HelenaHandbasket?

@TomeTome the beastly cat appears not to understand the concept of analogy.
OR your point is so good that the only option they see is to derail the conversation completely