France has outlawed pro-palestinian demonstrations

[NotSuchASmugMarried]

It's worried about the rise of anti-semitism. Do you think the same thing will happen here?

I think Israel and Palestine should Co exist. I think the people of Palestine should be able to trade, go about their business, build hospitals and schools without worrying that they will be blown up by Israeli bombs. I think they should be treated like human beings and not oppressed and terrorised in their homeland.

Agree entirely. Whether it's possible is another matter - again, the leadership of Gaza is explicitly aiming to destroy Israel.

I think that the only solution is a two state solution, but it has to be done in good faith. Sadly Israel has only paid lip service to it while pretending that it is the Palestinians who do not want this.

As far as I'm aware, Palestine have rejected all peace agreements or potential territory arrangements. Israel have not. If you have different information, could you share that and give some context?

I hate war and destruction, I hate seeing people get murdered on both sides - it is a tragedy.

It's horrific, absolutely.

Sadly Israel wants the whole of the area including the Al Aqsa mosque.

Is that why they pulled out of Gaza then? Have Gaza been coexisting peacefully since then?
I don't know much about the Al Aqsa mosque (genuinely - I realise it's an important site though) but is this the mosque where Hamas were storing weaponry, or was that a different place?

This is why there has not been a solution. You only have to look at the 1948 map and what Palestine has been reduced to to clearly see who is the aggressor.

Looking at the 1948 map tells us nothing about who the aggressor is, it tells us who has been successful in the wars that were fought during that time. Who started those wars?

@FairylightsandHygge is a two state solution the only option tho. It's becoming very clear the two sides can't live side by side. Is a landmark so important that the fighting and deaths keep going or is it time Palestine was resettled elsewhere away from it if they are truly the victims. This isn't like Ireland and Northern Ireland it's much worse and much deeper

Why should Palestine be "resettled". If Israel stops annexing Palestinian land, stops occupation and gives back post 1967 settlements, of course there can be two states.

Its like you think the occupied people should be the only ones sacrificing. And Israel can continue the terror and bombing with impunity.

Please think a bit more clearly and with less bias.

Even I know that the failure of the 2 state solution is not solely down to Hamas!
As others have already commented - look at Israeli actions too that have led to the failure of the 2 state solution, and perhaps even led to political and support economic support Hamas has received.

@FairylightsandHygge
Apologies, this post was to you but I forgot to tag you.

This is the problem. People say that Israel allowed Gaza to exist. No, that is not the case. Gaza is under Israeli armed rule. It is occupied. Nothing and no one can go in or out whether that is medicines, aid or food without Israel's say so.

The lives of the people in Gaza are pretty s*.

As for Palestinians living in the rest of Israel, they are living under Apartheid and this has ben acknowledged. Palestine are under Israeli military law while settles have their own courts. Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and others all state that Israel is an Apartheid state.

We have to stop simplifying things and pretending that all the problem is with the Palestinians.

I am sure none of us would want to live u der Apartheid or be occupied by a foreign power.

This is truly horrific. How can human beings descend to such moral depths?!?

As easy as it is to blame Hamas for creating this, and let's face it, that is what the media and everyone would like us to believe, but who created an Apartheid state? Israel. Who is occupying Palestine people under military rule? Israel. Who is imprisoning children as young as 10 and labelling them terrorists because they argued back to an IDF soldier? Israel.

Let me be clear. I love my fellow human and would sit and have a cup of tea with anyone from any background / age / race etc and would find something to have a laugh about. But we must not let fear of being labelled us antisemitic or racist stop us from calling out war crimes and genocide.

I agree it's more complicated than all the problem is with the Palestinians, but I can't see where you've answered a single one of my questions in your reply here.

You cannot answer your questions without acknowledging impact of Israel’s government actions on Palestinians and the support for Hamas in the region.

Frankly the more I try and find out about it, given the recent events, the more despondent I feel for the situation and failure of diplomacy.

The following figures were collected by the UN

But that doesn't address what I asked, either. Nobody has ever gone through point by point explaining the Palestine position, they just throw out things about occupation or apartheid. My questions were about how the situation got to where it is. Admittedly I think if you look at it that way it's harder to see the straightforward victimhood that people seem more comfortable with. But the map that's shown all the time, to imply that Israel have continuously pushed out Palestinians more and more. I know about the West Bank settlements, and I don't agree with that. But if it's the case that Palestinians have attacked each time and lost territory as a result of that, and not ever been willing to come to a peace agreement, how does that make Israel the aggressors? If I'm missing vital information, I would like to be told about it, not just read the usual emotive and vague statements about the situation.

That's because a lot of people wrongly frame the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as being coloniser v indigenous.

As they see it, as long as the coloniser remains, its perfectly acceptable to disparage them.

The Jewish and Palestinian populations are both from the same region. The problem is they both see themselves as the rightful owners of the very land itself as shown below:

"A vast majority among both groups (93%) see themselves as rightful owners of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river. While a third of Israeli Jews are willing to accept some ownership right of the Palestinians, only 7% of Palestinians are willing to accept such idea about the Jews."

Source: Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research.

This isn't an anti-imperialist, anti-colonialist conflict. It is a conflict about rightful ownership of land, Nationalism and who should govern.

It's striking that Palestinians are LESS likely to want to accept that the Jewish people do have some ownership rights than the Jews are willing to accept of the Palestinians.

So the problem is also a National Security one which most don't appreciate.

"Security in the area around Rafah is also of concern to Egypt because Sinai has been the site of an Islamist insurgency that flared a decade ago. Hamas, which has run the Gaza Strip since 2007, shares the Islamist ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood, a movement outlawed in Egypt."

And:

"Hamas' deadly attack on southern Israel six days ago - unprecedented for the group in its planning and scale - was a devastating demonstration of the military expertise it has gained since seizing control of Gaza in 2007....

Necessity is the mother of invention," said Ali Baraka, a senior Hamas official, adding that the group had long drawn on money and training from Iran and Iranian regional proxies like Lebanon's Hezbollah, while bolstering its own forces in Gaza.

Difficulties in importing weapons meant that over the past nine years "we developed our capabilities and are able to manufacture locally", said Baraka, who is based in Lebanon....

Necessity is the mother of invention," said Ali Baraka, a senior Hamas official, adding that the group had long drawn on money and training from Iran and Iranian regional proxies like Lebanon's Hezbollah, while bolstering its own forces in Gaza.

Difficulties in importing weapons meant that over the past nine years "we developed our capabilities and are able to manufacture locally", said Baraka, who is based in Lebanon...

In the 2008 Gaza war, Hamas rockets had a maximum range of 40 km (25 miles), but that had risen to 230 km by the 2021 conflict, he added.

After the most recent Gaza war in 2021, Hamas and an affiliated group called Palestinian Islamic Jihad managed to retain 40% of their missile inventories, a key target of the Israelis, according to the U.S. based non-profit Jewish Institute for National Security of America, keeping roughly 11,750 missiles compared with 23,000 before the conflict."

www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/bombardments-hit-area-gaza-sinai-border-crossing-gaza-officials-2023-10-10/

So, as a result of Israel Defense Force pulling out of Gaza in 2005, Hamas ended up in power just two years later. And increasingly improved their weapons capabilities whilst increasing their total membership from 10,000 in 1990 to 40,000 in 2023.

It's quite clear that Israeli withdrawal from Gaza made things worse from a National Security perspective.

Not better.

It's far easier to throw out slogans and controversial words, but that's irresponsible behaviour.

I agree in choosing to allow Gaza some autonomy, Gaza became hostage to a barbaric government in the name of power sharing and compromise Israel left themselves wide open to an attack exactly as we have seen.

In order to restore order and to prevent further mass casualties on either side Gaza must be made secure. Fir those inside and outside the territory.

Thanks @DownNative, interesting perspective as always.

I was just listening to The Rest is History, which i thought was very good and pretty even-handed, and they mentioned the blockades on Gaza and how that has affected their economic development. Can anyone give me some context or information on that?

I’m talking about all Ireland, all Irish people throughout the entire Ireland not just the North.
And not recent history but back to the Black and Tans and well well well before.
You are referring to more recent history

I wasn’t because news footage from the Irish Govn representatives from EIRE weren’t.

They made significant and real comparisons of all Irelands plight historically

Just thought I’d clear up the confusion.

I’ve just had another read of your thread and I really don’t know why you’re referring to Northern Ireland.
I wasn’t.
I never mentioned Northern Ireland
I said Ireland.

Ahh!
Ive just read you name.
So you’re a County Down resident I guess
Which explains why you only considered Northern Ireland.

Hope I’ve cleared things up for you

So Gazans can celebrate Hamas's terroristic incursion into Israel, but Israelis still in mourning, still not received back its kidnapped citizens have to have the comfort of Palestinians at the forefront of their minds?
What type of psychology is this and in which other situation
somebody be brave enough to employ it .
The only other parallel I can think of is when some from BLM suggested that restorative justice for Black male rapists was a better alternative than them going to prison. Or the transwoman head of a Scottish rape charity suggesting that raped women concerned that not all women working for said charity hotline are women should " rearrange their trauma" or some such.
There's something very sadistic about expecting victimised people to not only not retaliate , but they have to disregard their trauma on order to coddle those that hate them.....and this expectation going one way as victims aren't designated as such by them being violated if those that violated them come above them on the Hierarchy Of Oppression......that coincidentally is approved of in Post Modernist Theory and a LOT of Anglo academia.
But it is not integrity driven.

I don't think you have to offer an alternative solution if your objection to the current course of action is the humanitarian crisis it's creating.

I've said it several times in the last few days, the desire for retribution is understandable but the international community (by that I mean political leaders) should not be cheering on genocide in Gaza as if the trauma inflicted on Israel last Saturday was their own.

Cooler heads need to prevail and the action taken needs to be carried out with a clearly defined objective in mind. What is the objective? To eliminate Hamas so that Israeli citizens can be safe? Will the total siege on Gaza accomplish that? Can you bomb an ideology into oblivion? I don't think you can.

The people who orchestrated and funded the attack on Israel are not in Gaza. Israel are killing the foot shoulders and many innocent civilians. The action will radicalise many more which will become a problem for Israel in the medium term but in the immediate term it may well provoke other Arab nations and create a wider conflict.

It's all well and good for various countries to send military support now but will we be able to maintain that support when there is still a war raging in Ukraine. The munitions the USA sent were replacements for ones they had previously removed to send to Ukraine.

The attack on Israel was a long time in the planning, I've seen a commentator somewhere suggest up to two years. If Hamas were funded by Iran and the intention was to provoke a wider conflict then they have also had a long time to stockpile weapons and will be well supplied whilst western support for Ukraine is leaving larger military powers scrabbling around to find enough to send to both Israel and Ukraine.

There have been several wars between Israel and its neighbours, Israel usually wins. Their potential enemy combatants know what they are capable of so if the attack on Israel was part of a bigger plan their enemies will be better prepared this time.

Where is your evidence of this? Targeting school kids? When?

There is no evidence Israel have ever done that. This is fake propaganda to try and deflect where the real blame lies, and that is with Hamas.

Whilst I agree largely with some of your points, nowhere can I see you offering an alternative.

What is the alternative? That Israel do nothing and leave a marauding murdering terrorism cell dressed as a ‘government’ in Gaza/Iran? To continue with their sole objective of exterminating all Jews?

I imagine Israel’s plan is to secure Gaza - and smoke out those responsible on the ground. Hamas can not do everything remotely, there will be a chain of command in Iran and many senior commanders executing terrorism on the ground in Gaza.

This has to stop.

The people of Gaza need a functioning government and state. This can not continue any longer for them - Gaza is being used by Iran to inflict as much harm as possible to Israel and its western allies.

This situation stopped being about the freedom of Gaza or otherwise a very long time ago. There needs to eventually be a peaceful resolution agreed by both sides, and that will never ever be achieved with Hamas.

There is so much evidence from videos on the Internet to reports from Amnesty but sadly supporters of the Israeli regime are filled with hatred and label everything propoganda. It is this hatred that has lead to the Ethnic cleansing and genocide in Gaza which supporters of Israel are pathetically calling a war.

But rhetoric and propoganda is just that and the world has truly seen the evil depths that the Israeli regime will go to. Starving a city of 2.2 million people and cutting off water supplies - illegal and a war crime. Bombing tower blocks full of civilians, bombing ambulances, bombing civilians after they have been told to go to the South of Gaza, using white phosphorous (not for the first time).

For a long time the media did not show what was going on but now video footage is coming through on social media and it paints a truly ugly picture of greed, fascism and genocide.

Supporters of Israel who have not apologised for the genocide in Gaza should hang their heads in shame. Our government as well as the opposition who blithely pay lip service to the tired line of "Israel should be able to defend herself" without any consideration of proportionality and the commuting of war crimes should hang their heads in shame.

Yes, Friends of Israel is the strongest lobby group in the UK but governments should always act within the law.

Did the UK drop bombs on Northern Ireland after a spate of terrorist bombs in London and the bombing of the Brighton hotel in the 1980s? No, because it would have been an abhorrent and barbaric act. Why is it OK for Israel to do that in Gaza. Oh yes, the tunnels.

But in Palestine and Israel every Palestinian is seen as fair game because the Israeli regime has constantly dehumanised them using the same tactics that Hitler deployed against Jews in pre war Germany.

Why do you think Israel provides food, water, electricity, internet services to Gaza in the first place???

If Hamas is such a good government why are they spending tens of millions on war fare to kill the same Israelis that feed them instead of adequately caring for their own people?

Answer that please.

I constantly hear "what should Israel do?" with blame being apportioned to Hamas, Iran, you name it. But there is a real unwillingness to look at the inhumane conditions that have been created by Israel fro the Palestinian people.

The list is long, but let's start with:

Stop building illegal settlements on Palestinian land and shipping in foreigners to displace indigenous people.
Stop Apartheid in Israel where people are treated differently based on whether they are Arab or Palestinian and whether they are Jewish.
Stop arming settlers and allowing them to get away with harming Palestinian children, including the elderly and children.
Don't pretend you want peace and then refuse to treat Palestinians with dignity.

I could go on and on. It's like apologists for Israel turn a blind eye to daily inhumane treatment of Palestinians and the throw their hands up saying what can we do.

Its like a man terrorising his household on a daily basis, brutally beating his wife and kids, keeping them under an iron fist and then crying to his community that his family don't love him.

I have been utterly shocked at the lack of empathy and sheer rewriting of history that some supporters of the Israeli regime have shown on MN. Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true.

The world has seen the cruelty that Netanyahu and his government is capable of. History will not judge Israel kindly.