Labour want teachers to supervise kids brushing their teeth ARGH.

[noblegiraffe]

People can't get dentists for their children.

Children's teeth are one of the top reasons for child hospital admission, with 9 out of 10 extractions in 0-5 year olds being due to preventable decay.

This is clearly an area that needs addressing urgently.

BUT schools are in crisis, if they're not literally falling apart they are running out of teachers or unable to hire teaching assistants. Primary schools are increasingly unable to meet the needs of children with SEN and disabilities, where numbers are going through the roof. Where is the time to supervise teeth-brushing going to come from? Who has the capacity to implement this? It seems that Labour are willing to accept that there is a crisis in dentistry, but pushing extra workload onto schools to solve it is just failing to recognise the crisis in schools in terms of ability to take on extra responsibilities.

There is an increasing trend to see a problem in society and expect schools to do something about it. There's also an increasing trend whereby underfunded support services for children reduce the offer of those services, and schools are just expected to pick up the slack. An example would be NHS Southwest deciding to stop accepting referrals for autism diagnosis except in cases of extreme need, saying that schools could just deal with these children not having a diagnosis. CAMHS collapsing under the weight of mental health issues in children was met with the policy that schools should have a member of staff given a bit of training to try to replace expert services. Special schools are saying that some children are too needy for their specialist setting, so those children with extreme needs are left in mainstream schools who are just expected to get on with it.

Why is Labour's go-to that teachers should supervise teeth brushing and not that parents should supervise teeth brushing and be supported in this?

What do people want the purpose of schools to be? If it is to educate children, then the rest of this stuff needs to be farmed elsewhere.

If it is to be that schools should be a one-stop-shop for all issues relating to children, then we need funding, staffing and infrastructure that acknowledges this new role.

Well, we've been told about 5 times since yesterday on here that we've to let them all out together to go to the toilet because: human rights, (and apparently there's a curious affliction affecting only MNers' children whereby they spontaneously bleed, shit and piss at random moments every day, all day) so maybe we can just do lessons INSIDE the lavs and check they've done their teeth once we've finished wiping their arses.

I don't think it's a good idea.

Parents may as well hand their children over to the state at 4 and have them handed back at 16. What on EARTH has happened to parents actually parenting? It’s infuriating.

I went to primary school in the 70s and can clearly remember teachers supervising teeth brushing.

Me too, even shown how to use disclosing tablets.

We were taught to wash our hands properly at primary school. One lesson and then our hands checked before lunch. Stayed with me a lifetime.

I have no recollection of being taught how to wash myself or brush my teeth by my parents.

Parents are already supported in this. The problem is they dont want to do it. Just like the children on free schools meals that schools also have to provide breakfast for because parents simply wont.

they can throw an endless amount of money at supporting parents, but if parents simple dont want to do things to benefit their children, they wont.

remember sure start free books to encourage parents to read to children? You can give the parents free books, but you cannot force them to read to their child.

i used the surestart centres. Im a post grad educated adult. I met loads of friends at the surestart centres. All at least degree educated adults. They were always in areas of high need, but none of the children of those families were ever there. All the parents who attended were driving in because they knew the value of it.!

My daughter and her cohort had supervised toothbrushing in reception and possibly also y1 - in Wales, 2012-2014 ish.

Not saying it's necessarily a good use of time/resources, but it isn't new.

Thinking about it, we also had the teeth cleaning class.

Periods were left until secondary school but there were girls who were having periods at primary school.

It is yet another case of public health issues being pushed on to school because NHS services and social care are overwhelmed.

Perhaps if people could find NHS dentists in their area and the Sure Start centres were brought back then these problems could be solved.

By the time they get to us at the age of 4 it is too late to change parental attitudes.

This is exactly like the big drive on attendance. Just telling parents their kid needs to be in school isn’t going to drive up attendance. They already know this. Perhaps they could actually look at the root cause of bad attendance. Here’s a hint: it’s all family related.

We already have a similar scheme.

https://phw.nhs.wales/services-and-teams/designed-to-smile/

I don't think it's particularly onerous but I understand the wider point you're making.

I also had a lesson on how to brush your teeth, when the dentist came in and showed pictures of rotten teeth.

That isn't the same as kids brushing their teeth at school every day.

Example of this: I had a parent recently say that she couldn’t afford to buy a student the texts for their exams or any school supplies. But kids had brand new iPhone, Pandora bracelets and designer clothes for non-uniform days. She’s told us that it is school’s responsibility to provide cookery ingredients, books, pens, equipment.

Child doesn’t do homework, hates reading and says she is going to fail exams but it doesn’t matter because mum tells her that school is pointless. Spends all waking hours of the day at home on Snapchat.

And yet I am the one who is going to be asked why she didn’t pass her exams and to justify my teaching methods.

Primary school in the 80s, we had a nit nurse and dental nurse once a year. I don't understand how children are not being seen by dentists?! My DCs are seen twice a year by dentist and 4 times a year by a dental hygienist who paints fluoride on their molars and watches their brushing technique as well as bit of a clean where needed.

I don't think it's particularly onerous but I understand the wider point you're making.

Indeed. Lots of things are not particularly onerous and yet schools are collapsing under the weight of them (as well as the shitty concrete).

It's one thing to have a visiting dentist for a PSHE-type lesson to give a presentation about oral health and to show the little blighters how to brush properly and to use disclosing tablets to show effectiveness. We had a lesson like that, and all got to take a strip of disclosing tablets home with us, and that was aeons ago.

But I'm ready to bet good money that even that wouldn't work today, as every DC would have to be consented for the tablets and centrally supplied toothpaste (and I'd also bet that That Parent would find a way to object to a toothbrush they hadn't personally chosen). And of course there's the risk of "shaming" those who actually need help, because first go would show lovely blue/purple fangs

Utterly unreasonable to expect teachers to supervise brushing in school as a routine activity (not least because the thing that would make most difference is brushing at bedtime)

@Boudicasbeard I'm going to have to take issue with your last sentence. My child's EBSA was not caused by family issues, but MH issues. That aside, I think successive governments always try to push more and more onto schools because they are a branch of government effectively so can be directed what to deliver. A government cannot mandate a parent does x,y,z beyond a really basic level. It is also wildly unpopular with voters to point out that a large part of this country's current problems can be traced to generational poor parenting. So they won't say that.

The mind boggles! This is definitely the parents'/carers' job - not that of a school...
I get it that there are children who are victims of neglect which is incredibly sad. Our (special) school often provide breakfast for kids who've not been given any/give out items of clothing/wash clothes which aren't clean etc. We also view these issues as safeguarding concerns and monitor carefully. We have a high number of children who have free school meals and there's a lot of deprivation amongst our families.
There are a handful of children who we help with teeth cleaning as they can be extremely aggressive at home due to sensory/additional needs and the parents struggle massively. However, we're only talking about a few. I'm struggling to understand how this would need to be a blanket approach? Are there loads of children in mainstream whose parents don't support teeth cleaning? I'm in an alternative setting so out of the loop I guess.

At my school we show our Reception children how to brush their teeth, including providing them all with their own brush and paste. Having to do that every single day would take up time and staffing resources that we just don't have.

Why shouldn't kids brush their teeth at school? They eat lunch there, so it would be better for them to brush afterwards rather than eat lunch, sit for 2 hours of teaching, go home, probably not brush their teeth then, do something else, eat dinner, and only brush their teeth at bedtime. That's brushing teeth in the morning after breakfast (say around 8:15 maybe), eating at 12-13, and then eating again at maybe 18-19 and only brushing teeth again then. Why let so many hours lapse between the meal and the tooth brushing that there's another meal in between? You should brush three times a day.

Of course it’s the parent’s responsibility. But some parents just don’t do it for whatever reason. I’d had fillings and extractions by time I was 6. I’m sure it would’ve been of help to me to have brushed my teeth at school at some point during the day, to make sure it was happening once a day at least. I understand fully that schools would be even more stretched trying to make it happen and would need more resources. But I’d love to think that somehow those kids who are not well cared for (but not to the point of SS intervention) are helped along a bit more in their early years.

Same story in many areas. At my school I worked in (in v deprived area) they spent 350k building an extension to the infant school for a sure start centre. 18 months later it was converted (another 90k) into classrooms and office space because no one came. It didn’t matter how hard the staff (& school & health visitors tried) no one from the local community used it.
The other centre in my town was built in a let’s say more middle class area but it was only attended by people who engaged with NCT classes & Health visitors etc

you can not make parents engage just by throwing money at resources

Absolutely not. Children do not belong to the state. It’s desperately sad for neglected kids, but it’s a poor use of time and resources for everyone else.

Why should teachers have to supervise it?

Wasn't that a one off lesson....I remember that....but we had a school dentist too