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Original poster

Labour want teachers to supervise kids brushing their teeth ARGH.

321 replies

noblegiraffe · 07/10/2023 14:21

People can't get dentists for their children.

Children's teeth are one of the top reasons for child hospital admission, with 9 out of 10 extractions in 0-5 year olds being due to preventable decay.

This is clearly an area that needs addressing urgently.

BUT schools are in crisis, if they're not literally falling apart they are running out of teachers or unable to hire teaching assistants. Primary schools are increasingly unable to meet the needs of children with SEN and disabilities, where numbers are going through the roof. Where is the time to supervise teeth-brushing going to come from? Who has the capacity to implement this? It seems that Labour are willing to accept that there is a crisis in dentistry, but pushing extra workload onto schools to solve it is just failing to recognise the crisis in schools in terms of ability to take on extra responsibilities.

There is an increasing trend to see a problem in society and expect schools to do something about it. There's also an increasing trend whereby underfunded support services for children reduce the offer of those services, and schools are just expected to pick up the slack. An example would be NHS Southwest deciding to stop accepting referrals for autism diagnosis except in cases of extreme need, saying that schools could just deal with these children not having a diagnosis. CAMHS collapsing under the weight of mental health issues in children was met with the policy that schools should have a member of staff given a bit of training to try to replace expert services. Special schools are saying that some children are too needy for their specialist setting, so those children with extreme needs are left in mainstream schools who are just expected to get on with it.

Why is Labour's go-to that teachers should supervise teeth brushing and not that parents should supervise teeth brushing and be supported in this?

What do people want the purpose of schools to be? If it is to educate children, then the rest of this stuff needs to be farmed elsewhere.

If it is to be that schools should be a one-stop-shop for all issues relating to children, then we need funding, staffing and infrastructure that acknowledges this new role.

OP posts:
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11
J316 · 07/10/2023 16:15

Kids in Scotland already do this from nursery to age 7 😊

borntobequiet · 07/10/2023 16:16

Why wouldn’t professionals working with children want to do something that helps prevent poor health outcomes plus teaches them an important life skill?

Because there isn’t enough time, there are not enough staff and there are insufficient resources to support it?
Or perhaps they are uncaring and mercenary, in which case one wonders why they chose that particular profession.

Lorelaigilmore88 · 07/10/2023 16:16

I think this is a good idea. Of course dental health is the parents responsibility but fact is that plenty of parents don't bother and don't think its important. This would help ensure kids from these families are still brushing them at least once a day. How long would it take in reality? 10 minutes of a school day to get them all done?..

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Dental health General education
Original poster
noblegiraffe · 07/10/2023 16:20

How long would it take in reality? 10 minutes of a school day to get them all done?..

20, says the teacher upthread who has actually done it.

What would you like cutting from the primary curriculum to make room for this?

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DragonDoor · 07/10/2023 16:21

noblegiraffe · 07/10/2023 16:12

Just goes to show how a story can be sensationalised and taken out of context. Makes me question people’s agendas too.

My 'agenda' is to have a discussion about what exactly the role of schools should be, and if it is to include more and more child raising responsibilities then that needs to be openly acknowledged and funded.

If it is to include more and more support services because the actual support services have collapsed under the weight of requests, then that needs to be openly acknowledged and funded.

Any time the government or any think tank or whatever says 'schools should just....' the answer should be a firm NO until the money comes in.

There's currently a government taskforce looking at reducing teacher working hours by 5 hours per week. It's widely agreed even by this government that teacher workload is a massive issue. However, it's clear that that despite being a massive issue, it is not actually being taken seriously, if this government, and the next one, think they can say stuff like 'schools to start doing x' to solve problems elsewhere in the system with no pushback.

I do agree that there is an issue with teacher workload, however Health Promotion isn’t ‘child raising’ - it’s part of the curriculum.

If Labour are suggesting a tooth brushing programme for 3-5 year olds, then they are proposing to fund it. It will likely be the NHS that lead it, working in partnership with schools. The cost of resources won’t come out of a school’s budget.

ReeseWitherfork · 07/10/2023 16:23

My 'agenda' is to have a discussion about what exactly the role of schools should be, and if it is to include more and more child raising responsibilities then that needs to be openly acknowledged and funded.

I don’t think it’s a bad idea to have this sort of personal care stuff in schools, whether it’s cleaning teeth, hemming trousers, cooking basic meals, eating a balanced diet, managing money… I hear what you’re saying around “parents responsibility”, but everyone in society benefits on a macro scale when everyone in society has a basic level of education around these things. But it all comes back to funding doesn’t it. And lack thereof.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 07/10/2023 16:23

The cost of resources won’t come out of a school’s budget.

Time, including teacher time, is a resource that seems to be overlooked here.

OP posts:
avocadotofu · 07/10/2023 16:26

swallowedAfly · 07/10/2023 15:42

Who, how, when, where. I feel like dfe should have these words plastered everywhere and be forced to detail these things for any idea they come up with then go try and enact their idea in an average school setting for trouble shooting.

Oh and, ‘instead of what?’ should be on there. What do you want teachers to drop in order to create the time for this new thing?

This is exactly how I feel. We just can't do everything that's expected of us with the budget we currently have. If this is important to society as a whole then we need to think about what should be removed from the curriculum and how it will be funded.

avocadotofu · 07/10/2023 16:27

Boudicasbeard · 07/10/2023 15:51

@kittensinthekitchen

Don’t worry, they are leaving in droves and not being replaced. Soon you won’t have to worry about which teachers are shit (in your opinion) because there won’t be any.

And I can tell you this for certain. School refusal is often very complicated and hardly ever down to one factor. But if I had to pick (from my seventeen years of working with teens) the most important factor in getting kids into school and then being successful, it is parental support.

and what I am suggesting is that some parents need more guidance and help from agencies than they are receiving. And so therefore those agencies need more funding.

But there are also those who don’t give a shit about their kids but like to get extremely defensive when asked about things like social media usage, uniform or attendance because they also don’t like to be blamed for their own choices either.

But those families should still get support too because at the end of the day the kids shouldn’t suffer because parents can’t be bothered. I could tell hundred of stories about this but we don’t have the time.

So, yes. Some kids need help with tooth brushing. Is this the responsibility of teachers: no. Should parents be held to account for it: yes.

Exactly this!

MarliJay · 07/10/2023 16:30

hadenoughofthishite · 07/10/2023 15:40

Another ridiculous labour policy. It is the parents responsibility to teach their child to brush their teeth. Along with it being the parents responsibility to feed their child and all other nanny state shit that Labour want to foist on this country. When are people going to take responsibilty for themselves and stop expecting the government to do their job for them?

Not just a Labour policy, the Conservative gov. already have this included up to the end of reception.

MakeupTable · 07/10/2023 16:32

Absolutely not. It is a parents job to ensure teeth are brushed at home.

Dentists have been into my children’s school as a one off to talk about hygiene and that should suffice.

I think primary teachers have enough to do without having to fit daily teeth brushing into an already rigorous curriculum.

However, if support is available in a school where staff feel there is a need, then they should be allowed to ‘drop’ something to accommodate it. Staff are the best people to judge, a blanket approach across all schools is definitely not needed.

WouldYouGoBackToTheStart · 07/10/2023 16:34

It’s already happening. Children in reception and year 1 at my child’s primary school are brushing their teeth every morning when they arrive. They each have a toothbrush provided for them in the classroom.

HeyYouWithTheSadFace · 07/10/2023 16:34

I'm a teacher in the east of Scotland, the children in the lower school brush their teeth in class once a day. We have been doing it for years. It is really time consuming but apparently it saves the NHS a lot of money on dental treatment for these children.

elliejjtiny · 07/10/2023 16:37

I think the government should start funding dentists properly so that everyone who wants one has access to an nhs dentist. And also bring back sure start centres. Yes I know that some parents are neglecting their children, not feeding them etc but I like to think most parents want the best for their children and are trying their best. As a degree educated mum living in poverty I benefited greatly from the children's centre that used to be near us. I couldn't afford baby sensory or tumble tots etc but we were at the children's centre 2 or 3 times a week for breastfeeding group, toddler group and subsidised trips to soft play.

Pinkandgreentrousers · 07/10/2023 16:39

When I was an LSA in a Welsh primary 8 years ago we had to do this, I found it absolutely horrid and was the worst part of my day, I'm hoping that Covid put a stop to it. I work in a FE college in England now.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 07/10/2023 16:39

WouldYouGoBackToTheStart · 07/10/2023 16:34

It’s already happening. Children in reception and year 1 at my child’s primary school are brushing their teeth every morning when they arrive. They each have a toothbrush provided for them in the classroom.

I've no doubt that some schools are already doing this, like some schools are providing free food, clothes, washing machines, showers etc.

The question is whether it should be an expectation for schools to provide these services, and if yes, then where does the school responsibility for children actually end?

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Original poster
noblegiraffe · 07/10/2023 16:41

It also raises the question "what happens to these kids during the holidays?"

OP posts:
DragonDoor · 07/10/2023 16:44

noblegiraffe · 07/10/2023 16:23

The cost of resources won’t come out of a school’s budget.

Time, including teacher time, is a resource that seems to be overlooked here.

Teacher time is a resource I agree- but a programme that like this can slot into the daily routine and existing curriculum.

From what I gather, it doesn’t appear to be a DfE initiative- it’s an NHS one. People will be employed by the NHS to co ordinate it.

Look up the Child Smile programme in Scotland- that might give you an idea of the type of things that are done

Flying724 · 07/10/2023 16:47

I believe nhs should be showing Parents and kids what happens when they don't brush their teeth(photos of kids rotten teeth).

I remember when mine were 3 & 4Yrs they wanted more chocolate even though I said no my oldest waited until I was busy then he eat the whole thing maybe 6 pieces. When I realise I just showed him teeth that were rotten online and told him it even worse if the dentist has to pull them out. He brushed his teeth all evening until now that has stuck in his brain.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 07/10/2023 16:49

Teacher time is a resource I agree- but a programme that like this can slot into the daily routine and existing curriculum.

"Teachers can just...." should be something that goes in the bin until the crisis in schools is adequately addressed.

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ResisterRex · 07/10/2023 16:51

Where is it in here? I can't find it. Was posted upthread

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/1170108/EYFSSframeworkfrommSeptember_2023.pdf

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 07/10/2023 16:54

Not sure who you're asking what, Resistor?

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trevthecat · 07/10/2023 16:54

Haven't read the full thread but this already happens where I live, in nursery, childminders and Reception classes, they are hoping to increase this through school. The toothbrushes and paste are funded by a lottery fund project. We also have a text service for children to access a nhs dentist for check ups and treatment, also funded by the lottery fund project. This is hoped to be rolled out England wide, through the NHS. Not sure if it will take the same process though.

megletthesecond · 07/10/2023 16:56

Were there school dentists back in the 70's and 80's? I'm sure we had a visit every so often. But we also had a nit nurse and that doesn't exist anymore.
There were always shit parents. Maybe there was more state support 30yrs ago.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 07/10/2023 17:00

they are hoping to increase this through school

Of course they are.

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