Labour want teachers to supervise kids brushing their teeth ARGH.

[noblegiraffe]

People can't get dentists for their children.

Children's teeth are one of the top reasons for child hospital admission, with 9 out of 10 extractions in 0-5 year olds being due to preventable decay.

This is clearly an area that needs addressing urgently.

BUT schools are in crisis, if they're not literally falling apart they are running out of teachers or unable to hire teaching assistants. Primary schools are increasingly unable to meet the needs of children with SEN and disabilities, where numbers are going through the roof. Where is the time to supervise teeth-brushing going to come from? Who has the capacity to implement this? It seems that Labour are willing to accept that there is a crisis in dentistry, but pushing extra workload onto schools to solve it is just failing to recognise the crisis in schools in terms of ability to take on extra responsibilities.

There is an increasing trend to see a problem in society and expect schools to do something about it. There's also an increasing trend whereby underfunded support services for children reduce the offer of those services, and schools are just expected to pick up the slack. An example would be NHS Southwest deciding to stop accepting referrals for autism diagnosis except in cases of extreme need, saying that schools could just deal with these children not having a diagnosis. CAMHS collapsing under the weight of mental health issues in children was met with the policy that schools should have a member of staff given a bit of training to try to replace expert services. Special schools are saying that some children are too needy for their specialist setting, so those children with extreme needs are left in mainstream schools who are just expected to get on with it.

Why is Labour's go-to that teachers should supervise teeth brushing and not that parents should supervise teeth brushing and be supported in this?

What do people want the purpose of schools to be? If it is to educate children, then the rest of this stuff needs to be farmed elsewhere.

If it is to be that schools should be a one-stop-shop for all issues relating to children, then we need funding, staffing and infrastructure that acknowledges this new role.

Perhaps they could actually look at the root cause of bad attendance. Here’s a hint: it’s all family related.

@Boudicasbeard

Wow. Knowing and supporting families who experience attendance issues for various reasons, if we're going to generalise, I'd rather say it was because of shitty teachers that should've left the field a long time ago. A lack of understanding, empathy and basic humanity from teaching and support staff seems to play a big part, ime.

Who's going to pay for all the toothbrushes and toothpaste? Presumably schools, too? Despite the fact that we can't afford glue sticks or whiteboard pens...

At some point, surely someone has to accept that schools cannot do everything. Or if school is effectively going to be the venue for a lot of this sort of stuff, then perhaps we need well paid TAs or similar who are able to supervise this e.g. in the morning before school?

And it won't actually solve the problem of the lack of dentists.

There's an article in the Guardian today about the number of children being excluded from Reception. It talks about six year olds in nappies, not able to talk properly and references lockdown and dummies. It's not totally clear - on one hand it's referring to SEN and the removal of support and on the other, children without SEN who were so neglected during lockdown they weren't toilet trained or taught to speak. Which I guess reveals the extent to which professionals - I guess schools, preschools and nurseries - are taking on the most basic, fundamental aspects of parenting. It seems something has been so badly broken - and I know, the past thirteen years of Tory govt, of austerity followed by a pandemic, has utterly fucked families and let down so many children. But I'm still astounded by how bad things have got.

Schools can't take on the role of every support service - but children are in desperate need of support. It's truly horrific.

You couldn’t make this up really. This could literally be a spoof.

Neglect needs to be dealt with with the parents, not just glossed over by schools.

Schools can't take on the role of every support service - but children are in desperate need of support.

This is essentially what is happening, schools taking on the role of every support service.

Its as ifs other services can abdicate their responsibilities or reduce their service offering knowing that schools will pick up the pieces, like the NHS example in my OP. And they know that schools will pick up the pieces because we see the kids every day and have to deal with the fallout from the lack of services. Hungry kids, or kids in pain can't learn effectively in the classroom, so schools start providing free breakfast, or toothbrushing or counselling or whatever, and the mission-creep continues.

One of our parents this week had clearly seen this policy lol.

drops both kids at school ‘oh we forgot to clean teeth this morning can you do it?’ Erm
no. What with? Says I.

don’t you have tooth brushes and toothpaste?!?!? Apparently very confused that we don’t.

kids go without brushing. I wouldn’t mind bUt she dropped them really early and I can see their house from the bottom of the playground. They could have just doubled back to do it but somehow we’re the bad guys for not having packs of toothbrushes and toothpaste just ready and waiting, like a five star hotel….

Why wouldn’t professionals working with children want to do something that helps prevent poor health outcomes plus teaches them an important life skill?

The Childsmile programme has operated in Scotland for over 10 years, including toothbrushing in nurseries and target primary schools. But that’s just one example - there is Designed to Smile in Wales, some local schemes in areas of England, plus other examples internationally.

There is strong evidence that the toothbrushing programme in nurseries has reduced dental decay among children in Scotland plus saved millions in prevented dental treatments.
that’s the main point - prevention - needs to be built into day to day life, it’s not about children being unable to see a dentist - by that point it is too late.

Childsmile does provide support to targeted families including support to establish toothbrushing in the home; but having children brush in nurseries & schools alongside their peers gives another opportunity to have that exposure to fluoride / remove plaque, but also learn toothbrushing skills & establish it as part
of a daily routine.

Poor oral health / tooth decay has a negative affect on children’s school attendance & attainment - something as simple as daily toothbrushing can mitigate against this - surely it is in the interests of everyone working with children, including education professionals, to incorporate preventive programmes that support children’s health?

Why wouldn’t professionals working with children want to do something that helps prevent poor health outcomes plus teaches them an important life skill?

Emotional blackmail guilting teachers into going beyond their remit for no extra pay is a standard tactic, by the way.

I actually think this is a great idea BUT it should be a nurse in school that does this. Bring back and fund schools to have a nurse. They could be so useful.

It doesn't deal with the crisis in dentistry but it is a start.

It's not that they don't want to @Mummatron3000 but teachers are, like noblegiraffe says, being expected to do everything plus their full time job. There's no reduction in the curriculum, in progress targets or marking and assessment - everything is added in on top. Persuasively, the way you present it - of course you want to do it, it removes a barrier to learning so why wouldn't you, you feel a duty of care and responsibility to the children. But everything is piled on with no more funding, no more time, and there is a limit. Schools can't parent children plus teach them in the absence of any other support systems.

I looked after a fine tree old last week, with a dental abscess. He had five teeth removed. 😡 it's his parents job to make sure he cleans his teeth. Not the schools.

Five year old

I have to disagree here @IkaBaar - while there does remain a gap in the decay experience between most & least deprived sectors of communities in Scottish children, there has undoubtedly been an improvement in decay experience across the population since childsmile was introduced. (My source = national dental inspection programme reports , which are annual epidemiological inspections of children’s teeth to assess for decay, taking place throughout Scotland)

Eh?
I started school in 1993. I vividly remember my school toothbrush. It was white with a hedgehog on it. We all brushed our teeth at lunch time and were supervised doing so.

My child had visits from childsmile to promote toothbrushing at nursery and we've been asked to consent to toothbrushing at school. I thought this was just a normal way of public health initiatives accessing kids, like the vaccine programmes. Doesn't stop me brushing her teeth morning and night as well!

I was asked if I would mind weighing and measuring a child this week, mum had forgotten and she wanted to know.

It's odd, isn't it. We are expected to brush teeth, toilet train and generally take over from parents, yet if we mention that a family size Swiss roll isn't perhaps the best lunch for a child or that we have a water not squash policy in water bottles, we are told we are interfering with parental rights!

@noblegiraffe standard tactic for what / used by whom?

I've no doubt that teachers supervising teeth brushing would reduce dental decay BUT that doesn't mean therefore that it should be a teacher's job to supervise teeth brushing.

What would you like the core purpose of schools to be?

People who want teachers to do extra work for no extra pay.

Won't somebody think of the children?

We used to do this in some parts of Scotland. The NHS used to come in to school and give each child a toothbrush and toothpaste to keep in school for the P1’s & 2’s. We used to brush teeth in groups first thing in the morning.

Yes Special schools are different ,my Son goes to one they give them breakfast every.morning ,i always provide breakfast but sometimes he won't eat untill, later in the morning
And if your school.is anything like the one my sons goes to.there will.be a,lot of personal care due to incontinence etc
And they do help.me a lot with nail cutting etc
There is even a barber that goes in every half term to cut the pupils hair for a very reasonable price .

A lot of Scottish schools still do tooth brushing. I know of at least 3 that still do it supported by Child Smile.

I don't think this should be the school's responsibilty. What would help is what happened in disadvantaged areas when I was growing up - there was a dentist on site at the school and every child had to go and see the dentist for a check up once every six months, during school time. (I appreciate this will never happen unless the wider issues within healthcare are addressed.)

Guessing you don't live in an area where there is a chronic shortage of NHS dentists...

If it was introduced I would want children to brush at lunch time, after they have eaten so it doesn't cut into lessons.

So it cuts into children's playtime instead?

Why wouldn’t professionals working with children want to do something that helps prevent poor health outcomes plus teaches them an important life skill?

Perhaps for the same reason that a doctor or dentist might not want to teach phonics, or quadratic equations, or the finer points of Shakespeare. We have our own jobs to do.