When does terrorism become war?

[mids2019]

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

Surely we are all adults and can have a conversation and exchange different views, it’s not all about you and your opinions is it ?

When does terrorism become war? When does war become terrorism?

Does it really matter what term we use? There must be a solution that lets all the people of Israel and Palestine live together without violence and fear.

More racist bollocks.

Israel has nuclear weapons and has long had the firepower to 'obliterate Palestine from the map' if they choose. The opposite is true - in 2005, Israel withdrew from Gaza entirely, in a land for peace deal (that went well, didn't it?).

You seem ignorant of the fact that Hamas' Founding Charter explicitly states their desire for global genocide of the Jews (not just Israelis, btw, not that it would be just fine if it was just Israelis, in case that needed spelling out).

Stop both sidesing this on a day when Hamas have just committed multiple war crimes.

Just be honest and admit you have no problem with war crimes like hostage-taking of civilians or stripping and spitting on the corpse of a dead Israeli woman when the victims are Jews.

We see you.

@CatherineEarnshawsGhost sGhost · Today 14:29

I’m reporting this thread and telling MNs to take it down. The ahistorical, mendacious nonsense on display in most of the comments is beyond appalling. The antisemitism is sickening. People trotting out obvious propaganda as facts. It’s patently obvious the majority of commentators don’t have the first clue about this long running conflict (which goes back way before 1948).

For thouse who are interested- pre 1948 the area was occupied by the British... before that, it was part of the Ottoman Empire since the mid 16th century...
There wasn't an actual country called Israel for around 2000 years in the area.
So even the Romans occupied the area after it was a state called Israel.

Modern Israel was founded to give mainly (but not exclusively) European Jews their own country by the Nato / Western powers.

In the 1960's Israel went to war with Palestine in order to expand their territory

So there is a little bit of history associated with the area.

and @mnhq don't take this thred down just because people sympathise with one or the other side. It's a very complex issue well worth discussing!

If you find one, let us know.

@cakeorwine No I don’t. I think what is exacerbating the situation and making life for the people of Gaza worse is the poverty, lack of social services, and the breakdown of infrastructure supplying electricity, water and managing sewage that has resulted from Hamas’ political ineptitude, as well as Hamas’ social and religious repression. For them I think the necessary security blockade is a bloody convenient excuse.

In fact, Hamas has a long record of diverting attention from domestic problems to the conflict with Israel. This was a driving force of the Israel-Hamas conflicts in 2008, 2012 and 2014. Hamas’ usual mode of attack – rocket fire and infiltration into Israel through tunnels – has been stymied by Israeli defensive measures.

@Ylvamoon I agree.

Just been reading about the Sergeant's affair in 1947

The Sergeants affair - Wikipedia

2 British Sergeants were kidnapped by Jewish terrorists / militants/ resistance fighters in retaliation for death sentences that were to be carried out on captured Jewish militants.

They were riddled with bullets, hung in woods and their bodies boobytrapped.

There was retaliation from the British

"On 5 August, the British arrested 35 Jewish political leaders in Palestine, all of whom were members of the Revisionist party or the right-wing branch of the General Zionists' party. The mayors of Netanya, Tel Aviv, and Ramat Gan were among those arrested due to them being "known to be able to contact the terrorists." They were held without trial in the Latrun detention camp. The British authorities also announced that henceforth, all Palestinian Jews were forbidden to leave the country until further notice. A long-standing plan to outlaw the Revisionist youth movement Betar as a fertile recruiting ground for the Irgun and Lehi was implemented.[8][11] Betar's headquarters were occupied, and Revisionist newspapers were shut down.
Cunningham authorized the British Army to begin demolishing Jewish homes, a tactic it had previously failed to use during the Jewish insurgency. A Jewish home where an arms cache had been discovered in a routine search was demolished in Jerusalem on 5 August"

And this was one of the actions that led the British to believe it was not worth staying in Palestine.

Hamas' slogan is 'from the river to the sea' which tells you exactly what their aim is. Hamas does not want Israel to exist at all.

Where has anyone said they support Hamas.

I have stated that Hamas are terrorists.

just because people don’t support Israel doesn’t mean they support hamas. You can think both sides are terrorists.

On that thread the OP mentioned the attacks on civilians. The first response started 'Good, about time too ..'

Thank you very much, she was safe when we last spoke this morning but I haven't messaged her in the past few hours. She has three young boys who are very close to my kids.

I wasn't saying anyone here supported Hamas, I'm merely pointing out their aim. And it's why there is unlikely to be long lasting peace.

Jews and Arabs have lived side by side for over a millenia. the problems only started when the west tried to assuage their guilt of allowing the holocaust to happen and the all the many centuries of persecution of the Jewish people by supporting the zionist cause.

and let's not forget the IDF was founded as an amalgamation of terrorist organisations who carried out henious acts including the bombing of the King David which led to the death of the then British ambassador.

Palestinians are under occupation - it's gone on for so long that fact is often forgotten.

So if you're under occupation it's not terrorism to every few years rise up against the occupiers, IMO.

The Troubles is defo seen as terrorism.

@Truthisbetterthanlies , I think you misunderstood my comment. Either that or I misunderstood the comment I responded to. I believed I responded to someone denying that the things you mentioned have happened and calling it propaganda by the Israelis and a lie. I questioned if it was a lie just because they said it was. Obviously not. 🙏🏻

The BBC refer to militants but James Cleverly wishes the Palestinian fighters to be know as terrorists. Is the term terrorist Islamaphobic to a degree?

I think the language is important going forward as quite a lot of the world are viewing this as an armed conflict rather than a series of terrorist events. Is the world going to stand by Israel as it has when terrorists atrocities have occurred in the US or Europe or will there be a more nuanced reflection that this is a culmination of years of simmering and actual conflict in a volatile region?

You presumably wouldn't have thought it was fair enough to murder British children in response to our government going to war in Iraq or Afghanistan?

Exactly, it's considered terrorism

It's not working very well as a genocide, is it? There are about 9 times as many Palestinians now as there were in 1948. Whereas the Nazis and their allies managed to eradicate two-thirds of European Jews.

Funny that. Almost as if Israel isn't, in fact, committing or trying to commit 'genocide', Almost as if that 's a fucking disgusting lie spread by people trying to diminish and deny the Holocaust, and to demonise Jews all over again.

that post wasn’t aimed at you, I meant to quote someone else but now I’ve forgotten who.

History shows us that actions against a Government, soldiers and civillians can bring about change, such as the withdrawal of troops, independence etc.

It also shows us that it can bring about more repression and reprisals against a civillian population.

History also shows us other strategies that can bring about change.

There were campaigns against the British to get us to withdraw from colonies and some brutal actions - against the British, against those who committed the actions and against civillians.

There were also a great number of posts complaining about people
shouting antisemitism
weaponising antisemitism
sick of people wailing about antisemitism

And people posting a load of random ahistorical bollocks rather than say - yes, it's wrong to murder women, children and elderly people standing in the street. Because they don't think it's wrong if they're Jewish.

I'm used to this shit by now but it doesn't make it any easier. Especially when I'm desperately scared for my family and friends there.

That's an interestingly false selective version of history.

So when the Romans occupied the Jewish State of Judea, as it wasn't called 'Israel' at that point, it doesn't count as a Jewish state, according to you?

You also appear to be unaware that only 30% of the population of modern Israel are Ashkenazi ie European Jews. The majority are Middle Eastern, ie local.

Jews always lived in the country now called Israel - despite constant persecution, from Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Muslims, Crusaders, etc. there has never been a period when Jews were NOT living in the country.

But yes, do trot out your excuses for making Israel Judenfrei, why don't you...

this is a good book for anyone unfamiliar with what antisemitism it is and how it affects Jewish people