When does terrorism become war?

[mids2019]

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

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@Floppyelf
is one of the challenges that Hamas hold political power in Palestinian controlled areas and as our Foreign Secretary has unambiguously called Hamas a terrorist organisation in effect we are labelling a whole population group as terrroists?

I think one of the dangers of the current situation is that the whole of the Palestinian population can be labelled as an enemy for their implicit support of an organisation linked to terrorism.

Under International Humanitarian Law, the term "war" is no longer used and hasn't for a long time now.

The correct terms is:

1. International Armed Conflict
2. Non-international Armed Conflict

The first one is between sovereign States only. Not between a State and a Non-State Actor.

The second one is between a State & Non-State Actor(s).

The Israeli Supreme Court views the conflict as an International Armed Conflict.

But Hamas is itself a terrorist group. IIRC, most States regard Hamas as a terrorist group. Some don't - Russia, Brazil and a few others, for example.

Does the terrorist label give the IDF carte blanche for its current and on going response. We already have hundreds of Palestinians dead in air strikes and should balanced reporting highlight these deaths as well as those of Israelis?

peace deals have been repeatedly rejected by the Arabs (Palestinians) who vow to wipe Isreal and the Jewish people from the face of our earth.
I would consider support of a terrorist organisation with this aim to be ant-Semitism.

This. I grew up in the 60s with a different perspective than that which seems to prevail now. The people of Israel live permanently with the knowledge that all their neighbours, and a good population of the world want to obliterate them.

So I can confirm two parts - one, that elderly civilians were shot in the street, and two - that at least one of the hostages was stripped naked and videos are in wide circulation. The latter is a man (civilian, kidnapped from his home). This will no doubt all be on the news later today, so suggest that you back up a little with the ‘propaganda’ claims as this is an extreme event.

I think the nature of any armed conflict is that one side kills more than the other and then the conflict stops.

There was no gloating about civillian deaths.

There was talk that, in some people's opinion, the action of Israel's Government has led to this.
People fight back against oppression.

It's wrong to target civillians.

Unfortunately many civillians will end up being injured and dying because of this action.

Deleted

It is a lie because you say so?

Not sure anyone has yet answered the question in the title 'when does terrorism become war?'. There are a number of answers to this but one very clear one is: when innocent civilians are intentionally targetted. Note the 'intentionally'. All wars have civilian casualties, but states at war primarily target military infrastructure and personnel and terrorists conduct indiscriminate mass slaughter. The other thread on this topic was shut down because a depressingly large number of people on mumsnet seemed to think that killing Israeli women and children was acceptable 'retaliation' for the actions of the Israeli government.

It's a dreadful situation and I feel huge sympathy for you friend, it must be very scary.

I was on that thread though and I didn't see anyone gloating about Israeli civilian deaths. I did see people make the point that when a group is oppressed and their people subject to indiscriminate violence on a regular basis, it's not surprising that elements of that community will fight back. Is that fair on innocent civilians, no, but it's a situation that was created by the oppressors.

To be clear, I don't support Hamas or their horrific actions today, but I recognise that these things don't happen in a vacuum. I have huge sympathy for the innocent Palestinian people who have had no part in this, and who have suffered enough over the years. I also have huge sympathy for innocent Israeli people who do not deserve to have this violence meted out to them.

@cakeorwine Plenty of people 'fight back' against oppression without murdering women and children. Just a few from recentish history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Zelenskyy

Happy to give more examples...

@cathyj77

I agree that terrorists acts have taken place but as in the past the proportionality of the response of the IDF is questionable. Although the hundred or so Palestinian deaths are probably collateral damage is it up to Israel to show that they are attempting to hit specific military targets?

Well, no, it doesn't give Israel carte blanché to do as it pleases under IHL. Terrorist groups know this which is why they blend in amongst civilians and launch attacks from civilian infrastructure, e.g. schools, hospitals, etc.

Under International Humanitarian Law, this is called perfidy as Terrorist groups break down the distinction between military and civilians.

They do this deliberately because they know their firepower is no match for a State's. But this does NOT legitimise the actions of Terrorist groups who also often oppress the very people they claim to defend - coercive control.

It’s not terrorism, it’s resistance.

Its what happens when people live under occupation in their own country.

Except it isn't always is it @FloweryName? Not all occupied peoples (and not all Palestinians) are murderous terrorists. I gave just a few examples above of people who have lived under oppression and fought back whilst avoiding mass murder.

There are different types of resistance and there are acts that are beyond the pale. You presumably wouldn't have thought it was fair enough to murder British children in response to our government going to war in Iraq or Afghanistan?

I think what can also blur the terrorism v war aspect in this situation is the mandatory army conscription in Israel. Men and women in their late teens/early twenties have to serve for 2-3 years. (Unless they’re ultra-religious which is a whole other debate…)

So yes an attack on Israeli soldiers can be seen as war, rather than terrorism, as it’s soldiers not civilians under attack. But I think the boundaries become blurred when the soldiers under attack are 19 year old kids who have no real choice other than to join the army.

Nelson Mandela is a terrible example since he was one of the founders of a terrorist group called MK aka "Spear Of The Nation".

MK's targets were mostly civilians, especially black people of various ages. Even 14 year olds.

Indeed, Mandela supported the Provisional IRA and was very much opposed to the decommissioning process within the peace process. His reasoning? "Don't give up your weapons until you achieve what you want". This brought international condemnation of Mandela.

Most people in the West have a romanticised, propagandistic understanding of Mandela. He never renounced violence to achieve political ends.

@DownNative

is a problem though of labelling the Gaza strip a terrorist state in that the local government actively sponsors terrorism is that it can appear as if the whole of the Palestinian population can be viewed as legitimate targets. I agree combating an enemy who are indistinguish able from the general population is incredibly difficult but I think the IDF need to show this is being done.

I’m reporting this thread and telling MNs to take it down. The ahistorical, mendacious nonsense on display in most of the comments is beyond appalling. The antisemitism is sickening. People trotting out obvious propaganda as facts. It’s patently obvious the majority of commentators don’t have the first clue about this long running conflict (which goes back way before 1948).

Who lives 'under occupation in their own country'?

How ignorant you are - do you not realise that Israel withdrew entirely from Gaza in 2005?

You are justifying the brutal murder of Jewish civilians. Why do you support ethnic cleansing and genocide?

It's a common misunderstanding that acts of terrorism is called that because its directed at civilians only.

This is not the case and attacks on soldiers are also considered to be acts of terrorism. Terrorism is essentially a hit and run thing.

Yes and they are great examples, I would add John Hume to that list too.

But I believe the point @cakeorwine is making (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that it's entirely predictable that an element within an oppressed community will fight back with force. The Israeli government has created this situation in the first place.

That is not to excuse the actions of Hamas, it's just understanding human nature. It's also important to point out that Hamas is Hamas, it doesn't represent the entire Palestinian population.

I'm afraid there are videos all over the internet. There is really no point trying to deny what is happening, everyone can see it.