When does terrorism become war?

[mids2019]

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

I am absolutely not singling out Israel.

Russia's attempts to destroy civilian infrastructure in Ukraine is very widely acknowledged to be a war crime. Ive been very vocal about it.

The blockade of Gaza is off the scale next level.

The repeated inferences of anti semitism of everyone that dares disagree with collective punishment of civilians doesnt wash.

Its not about supporting Jews or Palestinians.

Its about supporting innocents on both sides and horror at what has, and is being perpetrated on them.

Hamas can burn in hell

Do you agree that the West’s decision to close off trade to Russia is collective punishment and thus a war crime? That is the parallel case.

No, Russia is not being denied water, food, power, medicine. Even if it was possible the Western democracies would not support it even as Russia occupies 1/5 of Ukraine killing, torturing, raping, abducting children.

Sanctions are aimed specifically at limiting Russia's military capability.

There is no comparison.

There is a very neat comparison. Ukraine no longer export anything to Russia, the country they’re at war with. Seems reasonable, at least to me and the vast majority of people. Why do you anticipate Israel should behave any differently?

Will digest this tonight after work, so thanks for that!

Ukraine could turn off the water to occupied Crimea.

They haven't, largely I imagine because they would lose a large amount of Western support.

You sure about that?

Is there anything you are basing this on?

I agree with your sentiments, however Ukraine actually did cut the water off to Crimea in 2014 (it's why one of Russia's first actions in 2022 was to restore the water, hence the Kherson offensive).
"After Crimea was annexed by Russia in 2014, the canal became a transboundary/international feature. As a retaliatory action Ukraine blocked the canal and water flow to Crimea, cutting off 85 percent of Crimea’s water and leaving two million people water-stressed. A Ukrainian paramilitary group also blew up electricity lines, leaving Crimea to rely on expensive diesel generation capacity. At the same time, more Russians were moving to Crimea, attracted by the warmer climate, leading to even more pressure on the resources. Without water from the NCC, Crimea’s arable land has shrunk, from 130,000 hectares in 2013—already a fraction of Soviet-era levels—to 14,000 in 2017."

And then Russia blew up the dam, cutting off the water supply again.

@BelleHathor yes they did in 2014 while not receiving any support from the West who largely refused to send aid or military support.

Its a real stretch to compare slowly progressive agricultural water stress to cutting off all supplies to 2 million people who have no alternative supply routes.

They could use the same alternative supply routes they use to bring weapons in.

Yes, I was just mentioning it as a lot of people didn't know. As I said I agree with your sentiments that cutting of the essentials will lead to a humanitarian catastrophe.

Anthony Blinken has confirmed that he has seen photographs of murdered Israeli babies and beheaded adult corpses.

The official Israeli Twitter account has also posted some photographs of the babies, some burnt beyond recognition.

No doubt there will be some who say they're fake, as some always do.

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I don't think anyone is seriously denying innocent people including children have been horribly murdered.

It does look like the claim repeated many times on this thread of beheaded babies is false.

There's a lot of false info out there, especially twitter from people with a wide range of agendas.

I just cant see that horribly murdering innocent people in retaliation for horribly murdered innocent people can ever be justified

The guy who started the 40 beheaded babies story was earlier this year found to be inciting race war on Twitter, tweets the finance minister Bezalel Smotrich liked. The tweets in question were about wiping out Huwara, a Palestinian town in Nablus. The US Dept. of State condemned this as dangerous rhetoric.

So naturally I believe his dead beheaded baby story.

Keep in mind that non-compliance with the overriding narrative is not good for your social standing, as seen with this tactic.

This is classic chilling operations in action. Truth does not matter. The emotional outrage is all that matters. That's why you see this thread leap to anti-semitism for the excuse of every "I'm actually uncomfortable with bombing civilians" post. Why the media blitz reiterates the rave and babies claim to empower that bloodlust. This is by the book.

None of this excuses the legitimate crimes Hamas may have perpetuated, nor should it minimise the loss felt. This is why war is shit, and why I've been against any further escalation in anything since being duped in 2003 by the rules based international order telling me invading Iraq was a good idea to end terror globally. We got played there, and now, it looks like we're about to go and destabilise a region that could lead to WWIII, and I don't say that lightly. I see Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Niger and now this as all linked to similar frayings along the colonial periphery, where power vacuums or other opportunities are being presented and taken advantage of. The US can't police everything. Europe is a meek bystander with no clout, and the rise of other powers is becoming pretty evident.

This whole sordid episode is an escalation that nothing good will come from if the IDF does go into Gaza proper. I fear for the Israelis going into an obvious trap, and I don't know what will happen to the countless thousands of Palestinians who will be between them and Hamas fighters. It will be a slaughter and will only worsen from that.

Okay and back in reality: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/russia-invades-ukraine-on-multiple-fronts-in-brutal-act-of-war - second paragraph.

As is clear, I don't believe Ukraine should provide supplies to their enemy, it's counterproductive. But don't have double standards. It's not a war crime to unilaterally cease trade or aid to people who want to launch a genocide against your people.

On the beheading of babies, journalists are now confirming this as the IDF has had to show them the evidence due to the pro-terror speculation that seeks to frame the Jewish people as liars. See JPost, Daily Mail, whatever floats your boat.

I don't think anyone is seriously denying innocent people including children have been horribly murdered.

Perhaps not on here but I've seen quite a bit of it on Twitter, etcetera. Some people really are denying not just that but, for example, that 250 died at the festival because they haven't seen their bodies.

It does look like the claim repeated many times on this thread of beheaded babies is false.

Stabbed to death in their cots or burned beyond belief isn't really any better though, is it? People were denying that too.

There's a lot of false info out there, especially twitter from people with a wide range of agendas.

I've sorry to say I've seen Hamas videos and Journalists are now confirming much of the horror. I've already posted a link to a fact checking account on Twitter.

And of course it doesn't mean carpet bombing other children is right. The footage from Gaza is heartbreaking.

@StarbucksSmarterSister twitter has really become a cess pit.

I dont have the time or experience to fact check everything so I only follow a few accounts from varying view points that I trust do.

I do think its important not to unwittingly help spread disinformation from all sides and care needs to be taken to avoid doing so.

New thread in the same section

Do you have a link?

I can't find it.

Link to new thread:

@Surplus2requirements

"Ukraine could turn off the water to occupied Crimea.

They haven't, largely I imagine because they would lose a large amount of Western support."

+++

Ukraine shut down the canal in 2014 supplying water to Crimea soon after Russia annexed Crimeaa. Russia restored the flow of water in March 2022 during the Russian invasion of Ukrainene_.