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When does terrorism become war?

975 replies

mids2019 · 07/10/2023 09:19

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

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mids2019 · 10/10/2023 20:37

@ChardonnaysBeastlyCat ,

Apologies I was referencing the post you refernced.

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EasternStandard · 10/10/2023 20:40

mids2019 · 10/10/2023 20:32

@ChardonnaysBeastlyCat

I doubt not may Israelis won't be hand ringing about those deaths....agonisingly mourning, stunned by horror, viscerally angry. Handringing not so much.

I agree with you and @ChardonnaysBeastlyCat

ChickHenLittle · 10/10/2023 20:40

mids2019 · 10/10/2023 20:29

@ChickHenLittle

I think you are disingenuous. There were German civilian casualties during WW2 but I think many Israelis would acknowledge the end of the Nazi regime was worth it despite civilian death. Israelis would obviously sympathise with German civilian casualties but I would think the ending of the third Reich was a greater priority.

I say it again. No one wants to see death but Israel has no option but to defend itself in a manner it sees best. The country has suffered a heinous attack and it has to come up with a strategy to neutralise that threat. It is not Israel's fault that Hamas use human shields (in fact an entire city shield).

I don't agree that Israel's "strategy" is correct, even the UN has said there is evidence of war crimes on both sides. I am appalled with Hamas and appalled with the Israeli government. However the bulk of my previous quote was by another poster, worded much better than I could myself.

StowOnTheWold · 10/10/2023 20:43

2oclockrock · 10/10/2023 20:19

First of all, I never said anything about what Hamas doing being right. So you can stop putting words in my mouth.

Secondly, showing concern for people about to get annihilated, ones who the IDF have on television, called "animals" in a particularly mask off moment, is nothing other than simple humanity. I don't want Israelis to be beheaded and I don't want Palestinians to have buildings dropped on them.

What I'm seeing in this thread, which I have been following for the last two days, is an abundance of handwringing over details that are irrelevant to the matter (beheaded baby, peaceful raver) as opposed to simply acknowledging that those people are now dead and now the reaction to stop this... is to kill more people.

Have I got that right? We need to massacre more humans in, what is arguably the biggest ghetto/prison on Earth, so that they learn their place?

And, as with Operation Cast Lead, the children who become orphaned from this latest move will go forth and do exactly the same as what transpired this past weekend, because nothing breeds violence more than violence.

Israel has obviously sussed this out. Which is why they've been dealing with this problem for literally their nation's entire history with no appreciable improvement in any metric.

I guess the chilling conclusion to be drawn up from the words exchanged over the air post-terrorist attack is that Gaza must be razed to the ground, much like after 9/11 the US got carte blanche to bomb every possible terrorist sympathiser in sight. And if that meant blowing up weddings or schools, then so be it. The price of freedom.

What on earth is it you don’t get?

It is the beheading of babies and the raping to death of young festival goers that is precisely the point. Nobody has any interest in making peace with the people who do this. Some people are evil and Israel has to bear the brunt of destroying evil forever.

There is no other outcome. Hamas is dead. And Israel will defeat the monsters that come behind them in its own time.

mids2019 · 10/10/2023 20:43

The UN are now acting as useful idiots by saying war crimes are possibly being committed by both sides. Putin is probably grinning into his vodka tonight as he watched the West having to say why the Israeli cabinet will not be in the Hague. Such a statement reduced the moral authority of the UN and by accusing the Israeli government of war crimes they really are undermining the term war crime. I would hazard a guess a lot of Jews have a historical knowledge of what constitutes a war crime so to accuse the Israeli IDF and by inference the Israeli state of war crimes as it defends itself from a group whose self declared objective it's destruction is objectionable at this point.

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StowOnTheWold · 10/10/2023 20:49

I think the definition of crime has a high hurdle. Hamas has reshaped the playing field. Previously held definitions may no longer apply.

Putin is a cunt by the way.

ChickHenLittle · 10/10/2023 20:52

mids2019 · 10/10/2023 20:43

The UN are now acting as useful idiots by saying war crimes are possibly being committed by both sides. Putin is probably grinning into his vodka tonight as he watched the West having to say why the Israeli cabinet will not be in the Hague. Such a statement reduced the moral authority of the UN and by accusing the Israeli government of war crimes they really are undermining the term war crime. I would hazard a guess a lot of Jews have a historical knowledge of what constitutes a war crime so to accuse the Israeli IDF and by inference the Israeli state of war crimes as it defends itself from a group whose self declared objective it's destruction is objectionable at this point.

You're entitled to your opinion. I can't justify killing from either side.
Having knowledge of war crimes doesn't render someone incapable of committing them - it isn't the first time they've done so either.
Hamas and the Israeli government are both abhorrent in my eyes. So many civilians will die, too many already have, and it's infuriating and heartbreaking on so many levels.

I have no idea where Putin has come into this, he is just as bad with his attacks on Ukraine.

GrouchyKiwi · 10/10/2023 20:54

What is Israel to do, then, if not target military structures belonging to Hamas? What's the answer?

If they do nothing then Hamas continues its campaign of terror.

And I agree, the numbers of civilians, especially children, being killed by the Israeli response are horrific, but again, what is Israel to do? Nothing is not the answer. So those who think Israel is equally as wrong as Hamas in this situation: what's your answer?

mids2019 · 10/10/2023 20:54

@ChickHenLittle

I think you would agree there needs to be a strategy that allows Israel to defend itself and ensure it is not prone to arts I again in such a way. If you read reports about how Israelis died in the terrorist attack you can understand it is imperative that Hamas ' capacity to perform such an action again is removed. If an incursion of Gaza as is necessary then Hamas has left Israel with little option.

if you listen to the language of Israel the term monster is reserved for those terrorists that committed heinous acts. I think that is justified.

there can be debate about how to minimise Palestinian casualties but I think that has to be done with the acceptance that Israel has the right to military action with the goal of destroying Hamas as a governing entity.

Hamas not using an entire city as a human shield would be a start as it is their strategy to fire at Israel before returning very quickly to densely populated civilian buildings. I do wish there were better mechanisms for the removal of the young and vulnerable out of Gaza before conflict escalation but it will take dialogue to achieve this. I don't actually think the Hamas 'military' would accept such a solution as it removes their shield. Hamas cares as little for its own people's lives as Israelis.

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2oclockrock · 10/10/2023 20:54

StowOnTheWold · 10/10/2023 20:43

What on earth is it you don’t get?

It is the beheading of babies and the raping to death of young festival goers that is precisely the point. Nobody has any interest in making peace with the people who do this. Some people are evil and Israel has to bear the brunt of destroying evil forever.

There is no other outcome. Hamas is dead. And Israel will defeat the monsters that come behind them in its own time.

Then just say you want to wipe out 2.3 million Palestinians and stop being coy. We all know what you mean, just say it.

mids2019 · 10/10/2023 21:00

@ChickHenLittle

in this particular example there is an obvious aggressor i.e. Hamas. Israel is responding robustly and of course I agree civilians dying in conflict is horrendous. I think we all wished we lived in a better world.

the major point though is one of deliberation. Hamas deliberately target s civilians in the most horrendous manner and Israel doesn't. This is not to say Israeli bombs aren't killing civilians but simply to say that was not the intent; with Hamas there was that intent most obviously.

I think to put together Hamas terrorists and members of Israeli armed forces on the same moral fitting is wrong. However everyone is entitled to an opinion.

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GrouchyKiwi · 10/10/2023 21:02

Hamas not using an entire city as a human shield would be a start as it is their strategy to fire at Israel before returning very quickly to densely populated civilian buildings. I do wish there were better mechanisms for the removal of the young and vulnerable out of Gaza before conflict escalation but it will take dialogue to achieve this. I don't actually think the Hamas 'military' would accept such a solution as it removes their shield. Hamas cares as little for its own people's lives as Israelis.

This really is the major issue.

StowOnTheWold · 10/10/2023 21:05

2oclockrock · 10/10/2023 20:54

Then just say you want to wipe out 2.3 million Palestinians and stop being coy. We all know what you mean, just say it.

Don’t be stupid. Nobody wants the population of Gaza to die.

Hamas needs to be eradicated. In the process many people will die. Possibly tens of thousands. The IDF will limit as best they can. Israeli soldiers will number high.

It is Hamas that seeks Armageddon. Their leader has said so. See my earlier posts of his interview.

This is why Hamas has to be destroyed.

2oclockrock · 10/10/2023 21:15

You can't destroy an idea with bullets. They're bulletproof.

Also, the last 70 years of Israeli history show this to also be otherwise. You can no more destroy "Hamas" than you can any other brain worm.

This will only lead to more cycle of violence stuff. That's the true horror unfolding. Hamas strike out. the IDF flattens a chunk of Gaza/The West Bank/Lebanon. Rinse and repeat.

No, I don't have a solution. I'm merely, as a powerless observer, stating that the mission objective here will not be met. It's even been stated by talking heads on both sides.

Killing for peace is like fucking for virginity. We're going to keep doing it, though and we can enjoy seeing similar scenes in the future. Maybe even another War on Terror, which gave rise to more terror groups than at the start of it.

StarbucksSmarterSister · 10/10/2023 21:17

mids2019 · 10/10/2023 19:48

How about Hamas ask all the women and children to go to one area of Gaza where they will not be targeted and gather their brave fighters into another so that they can take on the IDF as fellow soldiers? Hope not going to happen, easier to blend in with the population so your virtually guaranteed civilians die when Israel retailiates.

Hamas are total cowards, no way would they ever do that. What kind of person face-to-face kills a toddler or a baby and cuts its head off? Not a brave man that's for sure.

StowOnTheWold · 10/10/2023 21:21

2oclockrock · 10/10/2023 21:15

You can't destroy an idea with bullets. They're bulletproof.

Also, the last 70 years of Israeli history show this to also be otherwise. You can no more destroy "Hamas" than you can any other brain worm.

This will only lead to more cycle of violence stuff. That's the true horror unfolding. Hamas strike out. the IDF flattens a chunk of Gaza/The West Bank/Lebanon. Rinse and repeat.

No, I don't have a solution. I'm merely, as a powerless observer, stating that the mission objective here will not be met. It's even been stated by talking heads on both sides.

Killing for peace is like fucking for virginity. We're going to keep doing it, though and we can enjoy seeing similar scenes in the future. Maybe even another War on Terror, which gave rise to more terror groups than at the start of it.

No you don’t have an answer.

You are in some kind of indecisive limbo where baby beheadings and rape as a weapon of war is a side issue. That is what you said.

Leave the answers to Israel now.

rinbaud · 10/10/2023 21:26

Hamas did the atrocious crimes to incite such a response from Israel they want Gaza to be carpet bombed they want the death of thousands of their own, so they can show the worlds see what the occupiers did. They are playing to the Arab and global south world not comfortable hand wringing westerners in their homes. If Israel falls into this trap they could incite perpetual war on their borders and the Arab world and maybe even ultimately ww3 and everybody falls in that scenario. Millions could die in a global war that might ensue. Hamas have no fear of death and will be no doubt safe deep in their holes like Bin Laden before them willing on the conflagration.

William Hague wrote a brilliant piece in the Times yesterday. Wise words indeed.

Hamas has set a trap that Israel must avoid
Iranian-backed attacks are a desperate attempt to halt growing collaboration with Saudi Arabia and the UAE<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/fZE9o/www.thetimes.co.uk/profile/william-hague" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">William HagueMonday October 09 2023, 5.00pm BST, The Times

How Hamas managed to launch a brutal terrorist offensive without any foreknowledge inside Israel’s formidable intelligence services will be the subject of inquiries and soul-searching for years to come. To pull off such a feat will have required absolute secrecy among a tiny leadership group, giving last-minute orders to their followers and working only by word of mouth. But it also needed complacency and distraction in Israel’s leadership.
The intense political divisions in Israel made these attacks opportune, and the approach of a deal between Israel and Saudi Arabia made them urgent. Mossad officers might be blamed for missing the signs but Prime Minister Netanyahu and his cabinet should have been on alert for something like this.
While the question of how this happened will be a preoccupation, it will also be vital to understand why it happened. Why launch an indiscriminate assault on a vastly superior military power? Why expose the two million Palestinians in the crowded space of Gaza to Israel inevitably trying to crush Hamas and restore order? Why, as well as murdering hundreds of defenceless young people at a rave, parade dead bodies as evidence of the atrocities?
• What the Hamas attacks in Israel mean for Binyamin Netanyahu
The answer is that their objective is uncontrolled rage. It is to make Israel lash out in a way that starts a conflagration. To start a war so intense that it spreads, igniting an explosion of violence in the West Bank and bringing in Hezbollah from Lebanon in the north, with Israel fighting on multiple fronts. To see so many Palestinians killed that the Israelis lose the moral high ground of defending themselves against mass murder. To use the fate of hostages, with maximum cruelty, to intensify a frenzy of hatred whenever that seems to be abating. To halt the creeping collaboration between Israel and Arab states. Essentially, to bring down the ceiling on the whole region, including themselves and the people for whom they claim they are fighting.
The comparison many have made with 9/11 is valid, not only because the shock to Israelis that they are so vulnerable is akin to how Americans felt when the twin towers fell but also because the objective is the same: to wreck everything, to provoke overreach and misjudgments from an enraged enemy. It is not a strategy to make life better for Palestinians or to give them their own state. It is a howl of rage, an act of desperation by Hamas cheered on by an Iranian leadership who can see that the Middle East is moving quickly in a direction they do not like and are struggling to prevent.
Most western governments are stressing in their statements that Israel has the right to defend itself against terror. That is absolutely right. At the same time, they all know that it will require great wisdom on the part of Israel’s leaders to deliver a counterattack that rebuilds their country’s security, deters further attacks, kills the perpetrators and recovers most hostages without falling into the trap of doing what Hamas intended.
The Israelis have some of the most sophisticated armed forces in the world but will need an equally sophisticated political strategy to accompany them. Ultimately 9/11 led the West into Iraq, consuming our strength and dividing our politics, which most of us now recognise was a mistake. Israel will need to do better than that.
• Saudi Arabia seeks Palestinians’ support for Israel deal
Many other commentators stress that these events are a reminder of the case for a two-state solution — Israelis and Palestinians living side by side in sovereign states. But the cold reality is that the last chance for this has probably passed. In 2013, when John Kerry became the United States secretary of state, I was among many who urged him to throw himself at negotiating a two-state solution. It is to his immense credit that he did so. He talked with Netanyahu no fewer than 375 times, made 40 visits to Israel and 34 in one year to the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas. No one could have tried harder. He failed because of Israel’s steady building of settlements on the West Bank and divided leadership among Palestinians. There was no trust then between the two sides and there is even less now.
Most of the world has given up on such a solution and that includes a great many Arabs. Capitals such as Abu Dhabi and Riyadh can see the global economy changing quickly. They are determined to be at the forefront of it, transforming their societies and linking up their huge wealth with innovation, high-tech security and, most recently, artificial intelligence. That means they want peace around them, to stay ahead of Iran and to co-operate with Israel. The Palestinian cause that was central to their foreign policy for decades is becoming just one of many concerns, to be balanced against other priorities. Much of the Middle East is moving on.
Evidence of that can be seen in the hundreds of thousands of Israeli tourists who have flocked to Dubai. Since the Abraham Accords brought normal relations between Israel and several Arab states, trade and technology links between them have boomed. The UAE looks set for $10 billion of bilateral trade with Israel by 2027. These two countries are working together on cybersecurity, defence systems, banking, healthcare, education and agriculture. An Emirati energy company owns a stake in Israel’s Tamar gas field.
In recent weeks, Saudi Arabia has come to the brink of joining the accords, opening the way to similar co-operation between Israel and the Arab world’s leading power. A few years ago, that would have been unthinkable — the nation whose king is Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques sending an ambassador to Israel and promoting trade and investment between them. Now, it has become an imminent prospect — and one that is of grave concern to an Iranian leadership which partly sustains a strategic rivalry with the Saudis by maintaining hatred of Israel.
The shocking terror launched by Hamas has to be seen in this context: of a region that is shifting away from them and their patrons in Tehran. While they will have many motivations — loathing of Israel, antipathy to moderate Palestinians, the opportunity to spring a surprise — their predominant and immediate need is to bring chaos to a region that is progressing without them.
For now, they will have forestalled the Israel-Saudi deal. Whether they can trigger a wider war is in the balance. But in the longer term, if Israel can judge the right response, the forces driving a new geography of power in the Middle East are likely to prove more powerful than this terrible violence. It is no consolation to those caught up in it but nevertheless likely to be true — that this is no strategic masterstroke by Hamas, more a desperate move to fend off a future that is rapidly leaving them behind.

2oclockrock · 10/10/2023 21:27

StowOnTheWold · 10/10/2023 21:21

No you don’t have an answer.

You are in some kind of indecisive limbo where baby beheadings and rape as a weapon of war is a side issue. That is what you said.

Leave the answers to Israel now.

Rapes and firebombings of civilian towns have been performed by our side too. Let us not pretend that horrible acts haven't always been part of war. And as this is seen by Hamas and Palestinians as a war for their chance to break out of their confines, such things will happen here too. Whether planned or not.

Israel has no answer either. If anything, they're actually worse off now because of the nature of their government which has fractured their nation in the last year and also the massive failings in the IDF meant to keep their citizens safe. The bloodlust will be met, of that I am sure. It will not be an answer, though, because an answer removes the problem.

This is a predicament, and they do not have answers, only consequences. We're about to see the consequence of what Hamas have wrought.

I pray this doesn't escalate further. This could literally lead to conflagration within the entire Middle-east if we're not careful.

ChickHenLittle · 10/10/2023 21:33

StarbucksSmarterSister · 10/10/2023 21:17

Hamas are total cowards, no way would they ever do that. What kind of person face-to-face kills a toddler or a baby and cuts its head off? Not a brave man that's for sure.

Has there been proof of this? Genuine question on the side as all news reports I have read say it has been alleged by IDF troops but no proof apart from them saying so. Some commentators are speculating it could be propaganda, but it hasn't been verified or debunked so far (that I have seen).

2oclockrock · 10/10/2023 21:37

Take anything from this war, as with the Ukraine/Russia conflict or any for that matter, with a grain of salt. I've seen things on Twitter being displayed that are either old, from another region entirely, or simply doctored or misleading.

Asthebellcurves · 10/10/2023 21:37

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mids2019 · 10/10/2023 21:48

For those that think bullets can't kill ideas, you're right they cant. Nazism was an idea, perhaps it's still alive in pockets. One thing for sure bullets put paid to that idea placing Europe into a horrendous darkness.

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StarbucksSmarterSister · 10/10/2023 21:48

ChickHenLittle · 10/10/2023 21:33

Has there been proof of this? Genuine question on the side as all news reports I have read say it has been alleged by IDF troops but no proof apart from them saying so. Some commentators are speculating it could be propaganda, but it hasn't been verified or debunked so far (that I have seen).

There is absolutely no question that children have been murdered. As for the beheadings some journalists seem to be confirming it now. It suits some people to think it's propaganda but if a few reputable journalists confirm it, that will be enough for me. Unfortunately I myself saw on Twitter yesterday photographs of 2 adult male corpses that had been beheaded.

Even if photographs were splashed all over the papers there are people who would say they were faked, of course. In the West of course we don't show such things and Israel rarely showed the true aftermath of terrorist attacks because they said it was disrespectful to the dead.

StarbucksSmarterSister · 10/10/2023 21:52

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I remember reading about the Fogel family. It was appalling beyond belief.

ChickHenLittle · 10/10/2023 21:52

2oclockrock · 10/10/2023 21:37

Take anything from this war, as with the Ukraine/Russia conflict or any for that matter, with a grain of salt. I've seen things on Twitter being displayed that are either old, from another region entirely, or simply doctored or misleading.

I'll keep doing that, I haven't seen any credible verifications. I have no wish to see footage I should add, but other claims about certain events have been verified so I'm wary about anything that's "alleged" and "X said they saw...". I felt hopeful when a video was apparently released of the girl kidnapped from the festival alive and seemingly well, but no-one could confirm it was genuine.
I couldn't watch the video of the body of that poor woman being paraded through the streets, and just thinking about the people being killed in Gaza is bad enough.
I feel awful for the people of Gaza, it's a massacre they have no hope of winning, as so many seem to use "Hamas" and "Palestinians" interchangeably now.

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