When does terrorism become war?

[mids2019]

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

This is nonsense, and we’ve had this argument earlier in the thread.

It's an interesting question, but it really really doesn't matter. From a legal perspective the definition is fraught with difficulty. It has both political and also ideological connotations. Both sides will continue to ignore basic human rights and kill innocent civilians. Hundreds from one side, thousands from the other. It is nothing new there.

The level of whataboutery is staggering, both in these forums and TV discussions.

Stop making shit up - those are not phosphorus bombs this is what a phosphorus bomb looks like.

What is in that video clip is some regular fires / explosions plus rather intriguingly the smaller ones are fireworks (which is quite odd)

Look if you want to do misinformation you need to try harder and please keep to the script of denial, then whataboutery, then conspiracy theory and then denial.

Well Gaza is being seemingly firebombed - Bomber Harris was a devil in that he knew countless firebombs would join up and create a firestorm which would suck up all the oxygen and destroy everybody including those sheltering in basements. Churchill was apparently shocked when he saw the utter destruction the firebombing raids cause. The greatest loss of life in a single night until the atom bombs ere dropped.

Within the postwar British government there was some disquiet about the level of destruction that had been created by the area-bombing of German cities towards the end of the war. Harris retired on 15 September 1946 and wrote his story of Bomber Command's achievements in Bomber Offensive. In this book he wrote, concerning Dresden, "I know that the destruction of so large and splendid a city at this late stage of the war was considered unnecessary even by a good many people who admit that our earlier attacks were as fully justified as any other operation of war. Here I will only say that the attack on Dresden was at the time considered a military necessity by much more important people than myself."[74] Bomber Command's crews were denied a separate campaign medal - as they were already eligible for both the Air Crew Europe Star and France and Germany Star) - and, in protest at this perceived establishment snub to his men, Harris refused a peerage in 1946; he was the sole commander-in-chief not to become a peer

Nice attempt at a distraction post following your bullshit post.

How about some whataboutery and conspiracy theory posts as well?

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Just to give people an indication of the misrepresentations, lies and pro-Hamas content some accounts are posting on Mumsnet.

This morning a user called UhohFibonacci posted this YouTube video clip from the Middle East Eye in a thread called "To Be Sickened By Hamas" in AIBU:

https://youtube.com/shorts/vrRe97wGFHA?si=N2FZT15bAD444UGb

They claimed this showed Palestinians protecting the woman and child in the video. But when you click on the link, the title states they're "Palestinian fighters".

When I challenged UhohFibonacci on why they left that detail* *out, they tried to claim the men in the video were Palestinian civilians not associated with Hamas who were protecting them.

Furthermore, they boasted I'll never be able to definitively prove the men in the clip were Hamas members.

Funnily enough, it has now been proven those men ARE Hamas terrorists and the woman in the clip is Shiri Silberman-Bibas and her children. They're hostages and definitely not being protected.

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/video-shows-hamas-gunmen-kidnap-shiri-silberman-bibas-and-her-children-194724933949

Always, Always be prepared to critically interrogate whatever anyone says or the videos they post.

Try NOT to be led by your emotions as propaganda is designed to work on you that way.

One thing we have to allow in the UK is some sort of sporting acknowledgment of the terrorist attacks in Israel. The FA should allow and promote the wearing of armbands (hopefully with the Israeli flag) as a symbol of standing by Israel at this time. I can't recall sporting gestures after 9/11 but maybe there is a model there.

We also need celebrities to come out and pass condolences to the Israeli people.

I think a lot of people in this country are afraid of expressing condolence to Israel out of fear of taking a side or offending some religious interest. I do hope that those that feel cowed about showing obvious symbols of solidarity are not cowed.

Downing Street and the Houses of Parliament have had the Israeli flag projected onto them and our King has expressed his horror at events that enfolded Israeli communities so I think others should take the lead and follow. Well done Sheffield by the way for flying the Israeli flag briefly as a mark of solidarity. Britain stands with Israel.

@DownNative

my worry with the amount of propaganda flowing is that we may have a revival of Islamist terrorism. Surely all the crap on the net might radicalise vulnerable disaffected young men to commit acts we have unfortunatly seen before. Scary times.

@DownNative

Good post - there really does seem to be a lot of new MN accounts posting on this topic.

A quote from A Mr bin Laden after 9/11 from a letter to the US. Expressing our support for Israel to my mind is a brave one and I hope our security services maintain their vigilance in the coming months as I have a horrible feeling it may be necessary. For all those UK posters it is worth pointing out Hamas have links to other Islamist terror groups or at least share the ideology.

The expansion of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its price, and pay for it heavily.[16]

Hamas also have links with Provisional Sinn Féin/Provisional IRA too. Their murals still on the walls by the Falls Road in Belfast to this day.

Not all attachments are current or recent. Note the one showing Netanyahu as the "Butcher of Gaza" and President Obama as Israel’s "collaborators".

Absolutely.

Taking into account the following from NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence 2019 report on this issue:

"The Gazan defensive worldview is deeply engrained into the social fabric of the population. Children are raised to revile the enemy, i.e. Israel. There is limited critical thinking and access to information or to independent analysis. This significantly limits Israel’s ability to influence the Gazan population in such a way that it recognises the actual benefits of not being aligned with Hamas."

It goes on to discuss what could potentially be done to counteract that, but concedes deep penetration is unlikely.

"The likelihood of a narrative or strategic communications plan to have this penetration is unlikely."

Note the underlined parts especially.

Western States also are unlikely be able to penetrate through the Gazan social fabric to undermine Hamas with PsyOps as well.

So....just how likely does ANYONE think it is that Gazan children WON'T grow up to be ideologically linked with Hamas?

I'll give you a hint....its NOT a 50%-50% chance.

Understanding the reality of living with the threat of a terrorist group daily is very important here.

As for education, the international community has been concerned for years that Hamas has made their own textbooks for Gazan children to learn in schools. Gazan children are NOT learning the same things as Palestinian children in the West Bank!

This is dangerous and will continue Hamas ideology onto another generation.

See attachments as an example.

Australia stands with Israel alongside the USA, UK, European Union Parliament, France, Germany and many more States.

Some information from the US press conference tonight. I've selected the following:

"The United States is ready to take action should any actor hostile to Israel consider trying to escalate or widen this war.

We’re also going to continue to talk to our Israeli partners about their needs to ensure, again, that they have what they require to defend their country and their people. And that’s just not going to stop. In fact, it’s almost an hourly conversation that we’re having with our — our counterparts.

Q Thank you. John, you mentioned wanting to avoid actors in the region taking advantage of this. Can you give us a sense of who you think might take advantage of this that you’re worried about? Is it —

MR. KIRBY: I think there’s a unfortunately long list of actors in the region that are hostile to Israel. Hezbollah is one of them. And — and, you know, we’ve been watching with concern some of the rocket attacks that have come across the northern border of Israel from Lebanon, which obviously were coming from — from Hezbollah. So, we’re — we’re clearly concerned about that.

Q Are you concerned about Iran as well?

MR. KIRBY: We’re always concerned about Iran. And Iran’s hostility to Israel doesn’t need any reaffirmation by — by us. It’s — it’s out there plain to see. So, yeah, of course, we’re concerned about Iran."

www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/10/11/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-karine-jean-pierre-and-nsc-coordinator-for-strategic-communications-john-kirby-20/

With the West's major military powers preoccupied with Ukraine and increasingly focused on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I'd be concerned about the possibility China will spy an opportunity to invade Taiwan.

Just last week the Japan Times had this headline: "As invasion fears rise, China hones Taiwan blockade strategy"

The US will be too stretched to help Taiwan in addition to Ukraine and Israel if that happens.

The UN and even Israel's most ardent backer the US are pushing hard for a humanitarian corridor to allow essential supplies in and civilians out because they know it is a war crime and against international law.

Im shocked that posters here on MN of all places try to justify the deaths of mothers and children with the deaths of other mothers and children.

The total blockade must stop, it guarantees the death of innocents, not because of terrorists using human shields but because mothers holding babies in their arms have intentionally been given no place to escape to and no means to survive where they are.

I absolutely condemn the murder of innocents no matter whether they are at a music festival, living in a kibbutz or cowering under air strikes having had all means of escape and sustenance cut off by men with guns.

The US will be too stretched to help Taiwan in addition to Ukraine and Israel if that happens. This is a good point. The US is full of surprises, but I suspect the arsenals and armouries are not stocked enough for WW3.

Choices have to be made.

Taiwan
Europe
Israel

To me, these stark choices underlie the need for Europe to get its act together on proper defence funding and regional security. As a continent, we punch below our weight. At least for the time being, so does Russia.

Last night, a source with Egyptian security claimed Egypt rejected the idea of safe corridors for civilians. Americans still working on them.

The USA wouldn't confirm or deny when journalists asked last night.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/10/11/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-karine-jean-pierre-and-nsc-coordinator-for-strategic-communications-john-kirby-20/

Will look for more detail later.

@mids2019 my worry with the amount of propaganda flowing is that we may have a revival of Islamist terrorism.

Speaking as a person (English) who lost my brother in Iraq, and generally pro Israel, I'm very concerned about what happens next. This feels like a 9/11 event. The follow on actions by the US (and supported by us) led down a very costly and dark path. All that money and our soldiers lives might have been better used? Untold civilians killed in a cascading sequence of events that were triggered in our response to invade Iraq and Afghansitan on the most dubious of justifications.

It's not just the propaganda, people will be experiencing what is happening and watching what is happening and becoming radicalised. You can't bomb so many trapped civilians and cut of their vital supplies without people coming to think you're the enemy.

You can't bomb so many trapped civilians and cut of their vital supplies without people coming to think you're the enemy.

People in Gaza already think Israel is the enemy. 84% support for armed groups by the general civilian population of Gaza (quoted upthread) is pretty shocking.

Arguable they've always thought of Israel as the enemy and I don't think there's anything Israel could ever have done to change that. The 1948 war - where all Israel's neighbours attacked simultaneously, trying to destroy Israel before it even started - suggests that. It also shows that the trope that Palestinians only attack Israel because of previous attacks is false.

Israel's choice seems to be whether they are seen as an enemy you can attack with impunity or an enemy you leave the fuck alone.

The UN Secretary General has explicitly stated the blockade of Gaza is a war crime.

I completely support Israel's right to defend itself and abhor the barbaric crimes of Hamas over the weekend but liberal Western democracies actively supporting a war crime on such a scale in real time is unconscionable and makes a mockery of international law.

Everyone understands the situation has always been extreme and the international community has been prepared to look the other way when journalists are killed or snipers pick off stone throwing children but this is more than 2 million people, familys, children, babies.

I dont care what the polls say, support of armed groups to protect you from a perceived enemy is not the same thing as supporting the terror perpetrated by Hamas at the weekend.

Nobody saw this coming, not the IDF, not 5 eyes (theres some suggestion Egypt warned Israel last week) certainly not ordinary people in Gaza. It's unprecedented so how can they be held responsible and punished to extremes?

@Surplus2requirements I completely agree.

It is entirely possible to deplore Hamas for what they have done whilst also not supporting Israel's response.

I just can't get my head round people thinking that cutting off vital supplies to over 2 million people is a proportionate response.

As I've said before those countries giving unequivocal support now will find themselves on the wrong side of history when the true cost of what is being done now is known.

A more recent poll on support for Hamas in Gaza here: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah#:~:text=Overall%2C%2057%25%20of%20Gazans%20express,who%20support%20Fatah%20(64%25).

Hamas could not conduct the these terror attacks without external support over a long period of time, seems mostly from Iran. It's fairly routine for states to fund such operations abroad to destabilize systems. Iran are not alone in that, the US also has a strong history.