When does terrorism become war?

[mids2019]

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

There are no cries because there was no ethnic cleansing, what a way to minimise what that term means. I've lived in Israel and worked in Palestine, and the Palestinian people are not being 'genocided' or 'cleansed.' The only place they receive dignity and respect is at the hands of the Israelis they want to genocide. Foul.

Owen Jones pushing Hamas talking points right now. He shouldn't be allowed on air.

No matter what the grievance nothing , absolutely nothing, justifies Saturday's actions. This is like someone popping up after 9/11 and saying 'well the US does support Israel and look what there doing'. Not exactly respectful.

How many Palestinian children will it take? What's the number?

How about Hamas ask all the women and children to go to one area of Gaza where they will not be targeted and gather their brave fighters into another so that they can take on the IDF as fellow soldiers? Hope not going to happen, easier to blend in with the population so your virtually guaranteed civilians die when Israel retailiates.

@1dayatatime I dont pretend to have the answers but the emphasis should be on affecting change rather than exacting revenge.

There is an understandable desire for the second but how best to target that at Hamas without further alienating and punishing ordinary Gazans that are caught in the middle?

I imagine a huge ground incursion and possibly reoccupation are on the cards I just hope its done with enough thought else it may play into Hamas leadership hands by decreasing support for Israel and increasing Arab anger.

I do worry that the present Israeli administration isn't prone to such considerations.

A politician from Netanyahu's party has reportedly called for a nuclear strike on Gaza today. While i dont think this will happen its a measure of some of the group sat discussing how to react.

@Surplus2requirements

it's not revenge it's defence in that by neutralizing Hamas they can't do it again.

The US did not invade Afghansi Stan for simple revenge but to put paid to the support and training terrorists for there. To some extent that was successful.as many dangerous prior were caught and the Afghan people benefited.

Huge point......Israel are not deliberately targeting children. Pilots are dropping bombs on locations where there is evidence of Hamas military or personnel presence. This is not carpet bombing, no cluster munitions are being used, this is not a systematic destruction of a city as in Mariupol.

If Hamas did not use the populace as human shields I am sure the IDF would oblige and drop their munitions very accurately on them.

Correct and you can read about how the US did that with lessons learned from the British Army's own operations against PIRA in Northern Ireland. Book is attached.

Unfortunately, years later the US would squander the gains made and Biden wrongly pulled out very suddenly.

@mids2019 this thread is nearly full. Will you be making a part 2? Cheers.

Yeah, I do think the deliberate targeting and mutilation of children is worse than them being harmed in strikes where every effort has been made to avoid hurting them. If you don't, that says quite a lot about your biases.

I'm not going to provide a number that isn't relevant and isn't how these decisions are made. Are you going to answer either question I posed?

Accidentally killing children is okay?

Sounds like an excuse for every deplorable act of violence perpetrated.

The Americans have a term for this: collateral damage. They "collaterally damaged" 461,000 people in Iraq after 2003. The price of freedom we, in the comfortable West, had no problems paying.

I see you didn't answer the question.

I did actually. Try again.

@2oclockrock

war is war. It is an unpleasant reality of the human condition but we have to separate it morally from deliberate laughter of innocents. Israeli pilots do not target children; they are not commuting war crimes. Would you have had the pilots of the US bombers that dropped atomic bombs incarcerated?

Every soldier with professional moral values does his utmost to avoid civilian deaths and I sure if those deaths occur it probably weighs very heavy with them and takes a psychological toll.

however you have to agree there is no morality of those who enter farmsteads and deliberately without mercy kill children.

There is a difference.

I can't believe what I'm reading here.

First of all, I never said anything about what Hamas doing being right. So you can stop putting words in my mouth.

Secondly, showing concern for people about to get annihilated, ones who the IDF have on television, called "animals" in a particularly mask off moment, is nothing other than simple humanity. I don't want Israelis to be beheaded and I don't want Palestinians to have buildings dropped on them.

What I'm seeing in this thread, which I have been following for the last two days, is an abundance of handwringing over details that are irrelevant to the matter (beheaded baby, peaceful raver) as opposed to simply acknowledging that those people are now dead and now the reaction to stop this... is to kill more people.

Have I got that right? We need to massacre more humans in, what is arguably the biggest ghetto/prison on Earth, so that they learn their place?

And, as with Operation Cast Lead, the children who become orphaned from this latest move will go forth and do exactly the same as what transpired this past weekend, because nothing breeds violence more than violence.

Israel has obviously sussed this out. Which is why they've been dealing with this problem for literally their nation's entire history with no appreciable improvement in any metric.

I guess the chilling conclusion to be drawn up from the words exchanged over the air post-terrorist attack is that Gaza must be razed to the ground, much like after 9/11 the US got carte blanche to bomb every possible terrorist sympathiser in sight. And if that meant blowing up weddings or schools, then so be it. The price of freedom.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Hamburg_in_World_War_II

The British have done 'worse' in WW2. We do not label the pilots despicable because they were acting in defence of our country against one who was an existential threat to ours and to Europe as a whole.

Israel is being extremely retrained as the below could be an option, one Israel will not take as there is concern about the populace of Gaza despite probably a temptation in some political quarters to follow such an action.

if Hamas was armed with fighter jets do you not think Tel Aviv would look like Hamburg in WW2.

Very well said.

What I'm seeing in this thread, which I have been following for the last two days, is an abundance of handwringing over details that are irrelevant to the matter (beheaded baby, peaceful raver) as opposed to simply acknowledging that those people are now dead and now the reaction to stop this... is to kill more people.

WTF is wrong with you? Minimising and trivialising unspeakable atrocities?

@ChickHenLittle

I think you are disingenuous. There were German civilian casualties during WW2 but I think many Israelis would acknowledge the end of the Nazi regime was worth it despite civilian death. Israelis would obviously sympathise with German civilian casualties but I would think the ending of the third Reich was a greater priority.

I say it again. No one wants to see death but Israel has no option but to defend itself in a manner it sees best. The country has suffered a heinous attack and it has to come up with a strategy to neutralise that threat. It is not Israel's fault that Hamas use human shields (in fact an entire city shield).

Hamas say whatever it takes.

Go talk to them.

@ChardonnaysBeastlyCat

I doubt not may Israelis won't be hand ringing about those deaths....agonisingly mourning, stunned by horror, viscerally angry. Handringing not so much.

I think you have me confused with the above poster. I quoted parts of their post.