When does terrorism become war?

[mids2019]

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

It's horrific really, when the civilian population does have a large measure of responsibility for Hamas, and also that there will be innocent Palestinians that don't share that kind of thinking, and they will pay the price.

Most people if they were growing up in that environment, would probably see Israel as the enemy and support attacks, as this is the political and religious culture.

That doesn't remove responsibility for evil acts, or support of them, but I can understand it better than all the Western people that act as apologists for the lunatics of Hamas.

@PorcelinaV correct that Palestinians who don't support or share Hamas ideology will suffer. NATO StratCom COE identified this problem and has a report on strategies to counter the threats to those Palestinians from Hamas.

I stand with Israelis and Palestinians who oppose Hamas.

Gazans have had many opportunities to form a resistance to Hamas, yet have declined for almost 20 years. Instead, their resentment toward Hamas has pushed them to be more extreme and support groups like ISIS and PIJ. Hence why negotiating with Hamas is often pointless, as they can’t constrain the yet more extreme groups who control parts of Gaza.

It is sad that Israel’s investment in peace has failed, the Unilateral Disengagement has always been controversial and an argument against any further peace talks, and that perspective has been proven correct. Gazans do not want peace, they do not want co-existence. They seek what they say: the annihilation of the Jewish people.

There is a good article on this here: https://www.newsweek.com/gaza-could-have-been-singapore-hamas-turned-it-isis-opinion-1833145

I think the ground assault of Gaza is factored in now. As I have said before we can't let emotional blackmail derail Israel's defence. Yes it is going to be an extremely challenging operation so I would advocate a pause before the action simply because the IDF has concrete battle plans and is not responding from pressure from the international community to invade while there is window of opportunity afforded by international support.

I like most right minded people hate then thought of death and suffering and hope civilian casualties can have minimised but civilian death cannot act as a reason to call off further military action.Hamas as far as possible has to be stopped.

I also think the BBC should spend more of their news bulletins on the still emerging details of atrocities that occurred during the weekends terrorist bloodbath. I even think being more explicit about the actions (even though disturbing) would put needed context for the Israeli action in the international public's mind. (Of course respecting the privacy of the families).

I wish actually Egypt could set up camps for the vulnerable outside Gaza as this I think would reduce the cost to lives in the forthcoming weeks and given time those poor Palestinians that do not support Hamas could migrate there if desired out of the war zone.

However if you support Hamas and may even have relatives that are fighters or within the party then you have to accept a degree of responsibility for the incursion into Gaza. The West Bank is not being invaded and the people of Gaza have to ask why not at this time and pin the blame on their bullish government that has lead them to this.

Unfortunately, the people who would leave into any camps would not be the children - it would likely be Hamas and PIJ leadership fleeing to survive, allowing them to return to Gaza and continue attacking Israel in the future.

Egypt certainly doesn't want Palestinians, as they have posed a continuous terror and security issue in Egypt for 20 years.

@mids2019

I still think a ground war by Israel against Hamas is a really bad idea. Gaza is a crowded vipers nest and there will be street to street fighting with high casualties on both sides including many civilians.

Far better to stop supplies of food, water and electricity to Gaza and hope that will encourage Palestinians to get rid of the Hamas leadership. Yes it will be hard on ordinary civilians but better than bombs, rockets and street fighting.

As for Egypt they want nothing to do with Gaza and have strict border controls after Hamas backed terrorists have been using Gaza as a base to attack Egypt in the Northern Sinai for over ten years.

At least a few years ago, it was clear that the IDF had a pretty good handle on ground ops in Gaza: extensive replication exercises have continued.

However, if Gaza is ultimately too dangerous to have a group operation in, it is too dangerous to have as a neighbour for Israel given the Gazans' determination to annihilate the Jewish people. That raises more significant questions, because if you're so dangerous and violent no state on Earth will accept you - what can be done?

It's sad, as Hamas slaughtered the families of the Northern Gazan Palestinians who maintained good relations with Israel - the peaceful are long dead.

@1dayatatime

I think it is a question of optiins? Can Israel finish their aerial operations then rebuild their fence , bulk up security and sit back? Won't Hamas continue to get deliveries of arms from Iran distributing them to a new generation of embittered fighters and plan for a repeat of the weekend?

I don't think you can get away from the fact that a ground offensive will be bloody but if Israel can effectively remove central government and control centre s at least temporarily they can start to dismantle Hamas hierarchy and at least break up their military capability especially if they are in the position to find arms caches?

There aren't any easy options but is important Israel isn't the international bad guy and they are giving scope for options. One thing thing the media have to consider is how to report on the Gaza conflict as Hamas will actively use civilian casualties as PR and though the press have a duty to report this they will be in effect unavoidably doing want Hamas wants and projecting civilian suffering to a wider word.

Another galling point is that given the nature of the combatants it is going to be difficult to report on the number of Hamas fighter deaths as they may be indistinguishable from the civilian population. Therefore all deaths will be reported as civilian and it will look like the IDF are completely indiscriminate and just wanting to exact revenge. The press have to as far as possible give reasons for target choice by the IDF and report the conflict as a war which it is.

I think it's important that people outside Jewish circles understand the absolute brutality of the way they've targeted women, children and the elderly. It's unbelievably horrific and inhumane and people need to know that's what is being celebrated by those who say this is a cause for celebration.

Absolutely bang on. Especially your last line.

I've just seen on BBC Verified that Hamas have said there will be NO negotiations until the end of battle. Cannot negotiate with a terrorist group who believes they are in the Ascendancy.

@BlurredEdges .

I agree and it is the media's responsibility to report this. I actually think stories of the victims and their lives gives the true sense of the horror and senseless of this attack. We should look at this from a reporting point of view as 9/11 as basically to Israel this is what it is but more distributed geogrpahically; as has been pointed out the victims were not soldiers and this was not just an uptick of violence between two armed groups.

There will be inevitably a period of mourning in Israel and memorials set up for the dead and I think the press should show some of this as it is important in the coming weeks that the increase in conflict is out in context.

@DownNative

Horribly true.

It really does beg the question how will a 2 state solution work when one group has shown it really does not behave in a manner we would expect of a rational state? It seems like opening negotiations at some undefined future point in this issue is in effect appeasing a terrorist group, akin to giving ISIS a little bit of Syria and allowing it to operate from there.

It is the horrible image of the Supernova festival that struck me most. Young people celebrating peace and love being systematically executed out of pure vicious hatred. The murders seem to have been systematic and the terrorists knew exactly what they were doing. How do you negotiate with such hate?

@BlurredEdges

No words really. Humanity at its worst.

I am not normally a fan of the DM but the world needs to know this.

Sorry if this has distressed anyone.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html

And this is far from the first time - although certainly the worst. Palestinians have made a trend of beheading babies over the last decade.

Unfortunately, the people who would leave into any camps would not be the children - it would likely be Hamas and PIJ leadership fleeing to survive, allowing them to return to Gaza and continue attacking Israel in the future.

I agree, although aren't many of the Hamas senior leaders, people like Haniyeh, living in Qatar anyway?

Yes, unfortunately, which is why no mediation should be done by Qatar - which seems to be the national hotel of terrorists everywhere. It's beyond what I can contemplate that the US maintain their middle east operations there, especially after Afghanistan.

At least those leaders have limited day to day experience of running wars, so their willingness and ability to go to Gaza and start over would be quite low. They'd probably try to unify with Hezbollah instead.

@1dayatatime

Far better to stop supplies of food, water and electricity to Gaza and hope that will encourage Palestinians to get rid of the Hamas leadership. Yes it will be hard on ordinary civilians but better than bombs, rockets and street fighting.

If it's too difficult for the IDF I dont see how starving an already impoverished people oppressed from within by brutal Hamas terrorists and from without by the Israeli state for the last 16 years is going to encourage anything but despair.

I really can't see what people expect ordinary moderate Gazans to do.

They're hardly likely to cheer the IDF after a generation of blockades and incursions and I'm sure they're more aware of the inhumane brutality of Hamas than anyone.

Even if the polling is accurate of 50% of Gazans supporting Hamas that's still 1.1 million people that dont caught between the devil and the deep blue sea with no place to go and collectively punished.

No food, no water, no medicine sent to an already overwhelmed society, the first to suffer will be the young children.

I can understand it looks like the easiest way to avoid being directly responsible for deaths of the innocent but i can neither see it as having the desired effect or more importantly of being right.

From a Reddit thread I frequent. For those using conflating 'Palestinian' as 'Hamas' you are doing exactly the same as the antisemites with "they". Racism pure and simple, but you know that already. Palestinians don't get a choice in the race they are born into.

The genocide has been ongoing for decades. Refugees, deaths, crimes against humanity have been endured by Palestinians, but we kept pulling through.

Now it is over. Sides in this conflict are pointless, at the end of the day the only ones that will lose are Palestinians. They will use this as an excuse to obliterate anything that resembles Palestine. The genocide will be complete, and we will be forgotten in history. Our side is not the one writing the books.

I feel sorrow. I don't even want to read the news to see what is happening. I know what is going to happen: Genocide and crimes against humanity.

I don't understand why this happened. Why has the world been so cruel to forget us. Why were we sacrificed to appease another group? Why no one listened? What did we do wrong?

I feel we were betrayed by everyone. Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, the West, the East. No one cares. At the end of the day we are forgotten and will be remembered for the wrong reasons. We were put on the wrong side of history without having a say on it.

There is no way out. It is a ticking time bomb, and there is nothing we can do but flee or die. I am in sorrow, I feel numb. It is over.

The reason stating Hamas is incorrect is because this conflict isn't being driven only by Hamas. It's also PIJ, ISIS affiliates, al-Aqsa martyrs, and many more. They are Palestinian extremist groups, and work together as well as with other international terror groups such as Hezbollah. We also encompass their supporters, of which most are Palestinian. Just like when Hezbollah do something, we talk about Iranian action - we don't assume that every Iranian participated.

It's not the same as the horrific anti-semitism seen last night on this thread, and I urge you not to try and minimise that in your attempt to delegitimse the fantastic discourse on this thread.

@Surplus2requirements

"I can understand it looks like the easiest way to avoid being directly responsible for deaths of the innocent but i can neither see it as having the desired effect or more importantly of being right."

+++

Well if the objective is to remove Hamas from power and in my opinion direct military intervention into Gaza will a) not work and b) cause massive loss of lives and destruction of infrastructure and if stopping food, water and electricity supplies will a) not work and b) not be right.

Then given that there are no few elections there (and even if there was then Hamas would probably be returned to power) what should be the response to remove Hamas from power?

Just saw on ITV News the number of random buildings being demolished and the one crossing out of Gaza being bombed too. Horrific images. Thoughts and prayers to those caught up in this.

I think we can look to operation enduring freedom and the removal of the Taliban as a template for terrorist supporting regime removal. Obviously Afghanistan will never have perfect governance but the removal of the Taliban 20 years ago led to a lot of young skin getting an education and some semblance of progress in other areas.

This shows that if you can remove a despotic regime and install a raltively.moderate one you may not get a perfect world but you can get a state that doesn't actively sponsor terrorism.

The difference between Afghanistan and Gaza may be population density in that it is difficult to effect regime change without civilian casualties. It's like Hamas fighters are using a million people as the world's biggest human shield.

If Hamas fighters are known to simply split and occupy a range of high occupation buildings after launching attacks what is Israel meant to do. Should Israel simply allow its people to be massacred and not retaliate because of the fear of collateral damage. That is completely unrealistic.

Western powers know Hamas strategy. Perhaps Hamas think the build up of support for Palestinians will lead to a halt of the incursion but maybe they underestimated the resolve of Israel and it's supporters?

Yes the aftermath of the massacre at the kibbutz was truly sickening also. Beheading babies and murdering families in their beds is truly the manifestation of pure evil.

It's not proportional to the kidnap of Holocaust survivors and the rape of women though, is it? Palestine and Palestinians must learn that you can't sign a peace deal in blood, and until they fully comprehend that message, they will receive no sympathy.

The decapitated bodies of babies are burnt into the flag of Palestine until the people push out Hamas and determine that the path forward leads to cohabitation and respect.

Strong and beautiful words.
Israel has been ethnically cleansing and oppressing Palestine for decades. Killing and bombing people.
And no out cries for humanity, where were all these people who are outraged now, then.