When does terrorism become war?

[mids2019]

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

We have seen Russia target Ukrainian power supplies and we saw the reaction about that.

There may well be a military advantage but it will also potentially lead to civilian deaths where maintaining power can be essential.

Is attacking Ukraine's power grid a war crime? - BBC News

And from that:

"Even if they are, the harm done to the civilian population in attacking them should not be excessive in relation to the concrete advantage gained. And that advantage must be military in nature - terrorising the population is not a legitimate reason to launch an attack"

Does it apply if you are supplying your attackers?

How is not supplying goods and services to someone a crime? I think it is to some extent up to the Palestinian people to oust their despotic leaders and maybe if you make Hamas ultimately so unpopular there is a political uprising internally in Gaza that is a good thing. I know Gaza does not have free elections but the Paeltinians must know there lot won't change until Hamas is removed as the authority there. Everything is relative but the West bank has a possibly less radical ruling group (note the relative) and it is imperative to start anything like peace talks murderous death cults are removed from power. If we consider the Israeli attacks akin to ISIS we have a long standing philosophy of not negotiating with terrorists and so it is basically impossible for representatives of Hamas and Israel to open significant diplomatic channels.

Hamas have to go or at least be militarily neutralized before we can try and attempt a lasting peace in the region. Therefore we have to support action to remove them.

Time and again not least our very own Blitz shows that indiscriminate bombing of civilian infrastructure just strengthens resolve and gives a bloody gift to those that would make mischief.

https://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/22535
OPINION: ‘And the Whole Country Fell into Darkness,’ – Anniversary of 1st Russian Mass Shelling and What's Next

Russia started bombarding Ukraine with missiles on Oct. 10, 2022, hoping its population would capitulate. But Ukrainians' resolve will not weaken any more this winter than the last one.

Some positive news.

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231010-%F0%9F%94%B4-live-leaders-of-us-uk-germany-italy-and-france-express-support-for-israel

The treatment of prisoners of war is governed by the Geneva convention.
They are not to be I'll treated or murdered, they are not to be starved or punished.
Certain cultures respect this, certain cultures do not.

The blockade of the Confederate ports during the American civil war?
Blockage of Germany in WW1 and ww2?
The U-boat campaign ?

UK Government’s position courtesy of Reuters:

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk-supports-israels-right-proportionate-action-end-violence-2023-10-09/

Westminster Parliament lit up in the colours of the Israeli flag attached. Downing Street had Israeli flag projected onto the PMs residence.

In keeping with other States and Unions including the EU.

Now that is good news if true and if they had anything to do with the atrocities then they had what is coming to them and exactly why carpet bombing of Gaza will be so counter-productive as it allows the narrative to change from military gains to civilian pain. Which is what the terrorists seem to want.

And the Spanish blockade of Gibraltar from 1968 to 1982.

Was that a war crime too?

I don't think we should allow emotional blackmail to prevent Israel's actions for self defence. It looks like the US is suggesting to Israel there is a timescale for operations during a period where there is global sympathy for Israel. I think this approach may be wrong as it must take time to design and execute a complex military operation to enter a densely packed region with time need for training, reservist call up, importing the most appropriate weaponry, intelligence gathering etc. etc.

It may be better the world allows Israel to prepare a response at a time of it s choosing. Civilian casualties actually may be limited by this approach and increased intelligence coupled with highly refined planning may make operations more clinical in their execution.

I actually think the world needs to absorb the full horror of the terrorist attacks and there needs to be a period of mourning in the Israeli and Jewish world. I felt for those in synagogues quietly praying while the leaders of their country were already being branded war criminals by some and there were celebratory rallies in the streets of London under the guise of Palestinian support.

One issue with trying to remove Hamas, is that similar Islamist ideology can be found in multiple groups, and there is nothing to stop new groups being formed around it.

I think even the originally secular Fatah, is willing to use that ideology.

Yes, if a civilian population is dependent on you for food or water, you can't actually starve them into submission. Israel controls a lot of the infrastructure that supplies the population, it's not like people can just start laying water pipes somewhere else.

Let's wait and see if Israel literally tries to stop all humanitarian supplies on every border point.

Oh, I see, I missed that - it's a long thread!

But yes, that is going to look very dodgy. It's difficult to supply civilians in a conflict anyway which will be demoralizing and probably kill people, I don't really see why they'd do this, it just won't look good. Though I can't say the Israeli government has ever seemed to care much about observing the forms.

Tbf forms get strained when Hamas act so brutally towards citizens

@PorcelinaV

unfortunately true but it is important that a terrorist organisation does not have control of a quasi state. We had a similar situation with ISIS and their governance took some time to remove but it was sucesful. There will always be terrorism and extreme ideology but I hope we can make progress in terms of ensuring extremists do not have control of political institutions including the military.

Well yes.

But I don't think some posters really get this. Blockading a port - much less in the civil way, in a country the size of the US! - is nothing like what can happen in this situation. Palestine doesn't have independent infrastructure from Israel for the most part. It really is a tiny bit of land inside of another country. If they want water, it comes through Israel, if they want fuel, say for hospital generators, it comes through Israel. They can be cut off in a very complete way.

this may be seen unpalatable but the Palestinian people as a whole have the option of removing their leadership and replacing it though it would take sacrifice. If the Paestinians cannot or are unwilling to remove Hamas then it has to be done for them.

I don't think you can be a Hamas supporter in Palestine and expect you may not have a degree of suffering as you are a part of the machinery upholding a leadership committed to the murder of Israelis. There is sympathy for those that are politically neutral and do not support Hamas obviously but full throated support of Hamas cannot be aligned to a completely peaceful life.

Yes, but war crimes aren't actually justified by the brutality of the enemy, if they were it would make the whole concept a joke. Enemy soldiers can be as brutal as you can imagine, it still doesn't make it ok to take out your anger on their civilian population. And for that matter their combatants are still required to be treated according to the legal conventions.

That's the whole point of laws of war, you don't just abandon them because the other guys do.

I am not sure I would count this as a great success. Those people have not really disappeared, have they?

Out of interest, what specific laws do you believe apply to how Hamas are to be treated?

@Rudderneck

Yes, if a civilian population is dependent on you for food or water, you can't actually starve them into submission. Israel controls a lot of the infrastructure that supplies the population, it's not like people can just start laying water pipes somewhere else.

++++

That just doesn't make sense.

Country A attacks Country B.

Country B being pissed off about being attacked then refuses to supply Country A with food, water and electricity. This seems perfectly rational and not a war crime.

I mean why would any country want to keep supplying food, water and electricity to a country that has just attacked them.

@Rudderneck

There will always be ISIS supporters but we have removed to an extent ISIS being some sort of semi coherent force in North African and Middle East erm state s that allows them of planning terrorist attacks of greater sophistication. We also cannot tolerate the existence of formation of terrorist quasi states.

you can partially remove support from such groups by showing that those that give popular support to those group s are going to be international and economic pariahs.