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When does terrorism become war?

975 replies

mids2019 · 07/10/2023 09:19

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
69
cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 20:55

It is a war crime. I know it would be seen by some as justifiable because of the terror of what has just happened, but depriving a population of power and running water because of the actions of the people who carried out these murders is a war crime.

Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 20:57

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 20:55

It is a war crime. I know it would be seen by some as justifiable because of the terror of what has just happened, but depriving a population of power and running water because of the actions of the people who carried out these murders is a war crime.

They are free to get water and power elsewhere, nobody has shut off Gaza's power station. Trucks with goods and food are still coming in through the Rafah Crossing. Stop lying to people, Israel is not committing a war crime.

I look forward to seeing Hamas at the Hague though... oh right, that would never happen.

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 20:58

Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 20:54

So you believe Israel should continue to provide its resources to a state which has slaughtered and raped its people? And now threatens to execute civilian hostages?

Israel is under no legal obligation to continue providing goods and services to Gaza. I assume you're also against the export bans to Russia, as it deprives them of resources too. Or is it just Israel you specifically take issue with?

Russia has plenty of resources to survive.

Do you think the population of Gaza needs to collectively suffer because of the actions of Hamas?

mids2019 · 09/10/2023 21:01

One thing I think should be made clear is that the neutralization of Hamas leadership wherever they reside can become a justifiable objective with time limit. It took a long time to get Osama Bin Laden so there may be some patience needs by Israel on this front but surely Hamas should never be allowed to sleep easy.

OP posts:
rinbaud · 09/10/2023 21:01

A war crime is just that however you excuse it. Hamas are monsters I have no problem with saying that, but collective punishment of a whole population is what the Nazis did, and it worked, it cows a broken population into submission to authority. If that's what you want then there's no point arguing further.

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 21:01

Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 20:57

They are free to get water and power elsewhere, nobody has shut off Gaza's power station. Trucks with goods and food are still coming in through the Rafah Crossing. Stop lying to people, Israel is not committing a war crime.

I look forward to seeing Hamas at the Hague though... oh right, that would never happen.

How much power do you think Gaza needs and how much can it make for itself?

How much water can it provide for its population?

Gaza 'soon without fuel, medicine and food' - Israel authorities - BBC News

On Monday, Israel's Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said it would impose a "complete siege" on the territory.
"No electricity, no food, no water, no gas - it's all closed," he said, adding that "we are fighting animals and are acting accordingly."

Palestinians react as following Israeli strikes on a residential building, in Gaza

Gaza 'soon without fuel, medicine and food' - Israel authorities

Israel has announced a "complete siege" on the Strip in response to Saturday's attacks.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67051292

StowOnTheWold · 09/10/2023 21:02

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 20:55

It is a war crime. I know it would be seen by some as justifiable because of the terror of what has just happened, but depriving a population of power and running water because of the actions of the people who carried out these murders is a war crime.

Technically it may be. Someone more educated in the subject matter will come along probably.

In the meantime, what would you do to eradicate the cancer that is Hamas? The cancer that causes Arab and Israeli suffering? The cancer that wants to self destruct Arabs and Israelis for an ideology that only it seeks?

Hamas is the monster in the room now. It has to be destroyed.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 09/10/2023 21:04

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 20:58

Russia has plenty of resources to survive.

Do you think the population of Gaza needs to collectively suffer because of the actions of Hamas?

Why do the people of Gaza accept being made Hamas' pawns which only leads to suffering?

1dayatatime · 09/10/2023 21:07

@cakeorwine

Do you think the population of Gaza needs to collectively suffer because of the actions of Hamas?

+++

The population of Gaza are the only ones with the ability to remove Hamas because direct military intervention by Israel won't.

Incidentally during WW2 do you think that the population of Germany needed to suffer from allied bombings because of the actions of the Nazis?

MrTiddlesTheCat · 09/10/2023 21:08

rinbaud · 09/10/2023 20:51

Collective punishment of the innocent along with the guilty is a war crime. If you cut off the water, power, fuel and food to a population of 2 million people you are consigning thousands to their horrible deaths and encouraging barbarism. The monsters of Hamas will no doubt be well-fed and watered I can't see them being bothered, that's probably what they want they have a death wish after all.

That's not correct. The Geneva convention allows for reprisals as an enforcement measure in response to a breach of international law by the enemy. So long as they aren't carried out against 'protected persons' ie POWs.

Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 21:09

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 21:01

How much power do you think Gaza needs and how much can it make for itself?

How much water can it provide for its population?

Gaza 'soon without fuel, medicine and food' - Israel authorities - BBC News

On Monday, Israel's Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said it would impose a "complete siege" on the territory.
"No electricity, no food, no water, no gas - it's all closed," he said, adding that "we are fighting animals and are acting accordingly."

As far as I can tell, the gap between the power they can produce and the power demands in Gaza are getting closer and closer.

Israel aren't forcing a siege via Rafah, where food trucks enter just fine. They'll survive thanks to Israel's grace, grace it has never been shown by the terror state of Gaza.

1dayatatime · 09/10/2023 21:10

@cakeorwine

"It is a war crime"

+++

No it's not - France a few years back stopped the supply of electricity to the UK because they had so many nuclear outages and they prioritised supply to French customers over exports to the UK. Not exactly a war crime.

rinbaud · 09/10/2023 21:15

Bombing of civilians has been proved to only make the population who are bombed even more militant in their opposition to the bomber. Just look at Ukraine where Russia tried bombing their power and water it only stiffened their resolve. Besides which there are at least 100 Israeli hostages held by Hamas in Gaza as well 4 of which sadly are believed to have died already.

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 21:16

1dayatatime · 09/10/2023 21:07

@cakeorwine

Do you think the population of Gaza needs to collectively suffer because of the actions of Hamas?

+++

The population of Gaza are the only ones with the ability to remove Hamas because direct military intervention by Israel won't.

Incidentally during WW2 do you think that the population of Germany needed to suffer from allied bombings because of the actions of the Nazis?

That is a good question.
And the answer is - I wasn't there.
It's easy in hindsight to say that Bomber Command who targeted factories, but who killed many civilians, including the fire bombing of Dresden - and to say that was a war crime.

However, that was total war - and the people of today weren't involved in that conflict at the time.

We celebrate the Dambusters - but that was a war crime by today's standards - deliberately blowing up a dam and affecting the water reserves of people. However, a brave mission to try and destroy the enemies industrial capability.

We have the Geneva Convention for a reason - and collective punishment came out of WW2 because of what happened to civilians.

""No protected person may be punished for any offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property is prohibited.""

Reprisal - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reprisal

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 21:18

MrTiddlesTheCat · 09/10/2023 21:08

That's not correct. The Geneva convention allows for reprisals as an enforcement measure in response to a breach of international law by the enemy. So long as they aren't carried out against 'protected persons' ie POWs.

"No protected person may be punished for any offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property is prohibited."

Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals.

Looting - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillage

Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 21:19

rinbaud · 09/10/2023 21:15

Bombing of civilians has been proved to only make the population who are bombed even more militant in their opposition to the bomber. Just look at Ukraine where Russia tried bombing their power and water it only stiffened their resolve. Besides which there are at least 100 Israeli hostages held by Hamas in Gaza as well 4 of which sadly are believed to have died already.

Actually the evidence on this is mixed: some studies (Jason Lyall is the author) found that indiscriminate violence was highly effective in destabilising support for insurgency groups.

However, Israel doesn't target civilians so the point is moot.

rinbaud · 09/10/2023 21:22

Thankfully there are some wise cool heads in Israel - let's hope their views prevail.

https://www.ft.com/content/6004bc21-3e2c-4738-b5d7-02b34e5bc8cc

Instead, Israel’s strike against Hamas must be both extensive and sustained. The dismantling of the organisation’s security and governance mechanisms is imperative. But it is important that Israel also displays a disciplined stance towards the Gazan public — refraining from indiscriminate targeting while providing assistance for the humanitarian needs of the more than 2mn Palestinians packed into the strip.

At the same time, it is crucial that Israel undertakes a thorough and candid strategic analysis before taking further action. While the prospect of either conquering or a lengthy occupation of the Gaza Strip is feasible, it would come at a steep strategic cost, involving casualties, substantial economic resources and potential damage to Israel’s international standing.

Israel must think before it acts on Hamas atrocities | Financial Times

Strikes on the organisation should be extensive, but prolonged conflict in the Gaza strip will come at a cost

https://www.ft.com/content/6004bc21-3e2c-4738-b5d7-02b34e5bc8cc

DownNative · 09/10/2023 21:35

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 20:52

Because firing bombs and missiles into cities never results in civilian deaths?

Yes,there might well be propaganda and what people say has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Yes, the Israelis warn people.

But firing bombs and missiles, no matter how accurate, will result in civilian deaths. Including babies.

Yes, civilian deaths will be the result.

But as I've explained previously in detail that is a direct consequence of Hamas abusing the protection given to civilians and civilian infrastructure under International Humanitarian Law. The behaviour of Hamas increases the likelihood of Israel retaliating with missiles and other measures.

Since 1945, there hasn't really been a conventional conflict between conventional forces. Ukraine and Gulf War 1991 are the very few exceptions. The majority of conflicts since 1945 have been what we call irregular conflicts, i.e. guerilla aka terrorist groups against usually conventional State forces who then have to adapt to become counter-terrorist specialists.

Terrorist groups do this in the first place because they know they cannot match a States firepower like for like. They also do it because they KNOW that first impressions often shapes how people around the world think about the conflict. Terrorist groups are usually very good at propaganda.

NATO StratCom COE identified in 2019 some measures States can take to counter Terrorist atrocities and propaganda. I've listed them here:

  • Strategically, nations should prepare to publicly justify their position, and reveal their adversary’s use of civilians in combat.
  • Target audiences should be thoroughly considered, including governments, NGOs, transnational organisations, colleges and universities, and general public opinion (including social media platforms and other fora). Such a plan should be an inherent part of any strategy, and should be prepared before commencing any military operation.
  • Operationally, priority should be given to information activities aimed at the very civilians who are used as human shields, in order to undermine the adversary and convince civilians to actively or passively refuse to serve as human shields.
  • Governments should thoroughly investigate every case in which the military is accused of committing war crimes, even if the alleged government knows the claims to be false. Governments should not ignore any claims, as this allows the adversary to control the narrative.
  • Prevention: Risk and Crisis Communications - basically means avoid undermining commitment to international law.
  • Mitigation: Establish Transparent Early Warning Systems & Investigative Mechanisms - basically means identify a terrorist group's attempts to use lawfare against a State.
  • Rather than merely reacting to accusations of war crimes, governments should consider the use of legal instruments to actively counter adversaries who use human shields. They should direct their intelligence agencies to gain access to materials that prove the adversary’s illegal use of human shields, and publicise these materials in international tribunals.
  • Integrated Communication - basically means the State should make excellent use of various communication methods such as social media in order to target an audience and tailor the message for each one appropriately in order to prevent the terrorist's narrative predominating. States should also create partnerships with local and global news outlets to ensure accurate information is disseminated.
  • Strategic Planning of PsyOps Campaigns (detailed below):

"Given the demographic and geographic conditions within which Hamas operates, there is a relationship between geographic proximity and governance where Hamas uses its governance framework to control (providing or withholding) access to vital goods and services. Reliance on or rejection of ‘alternative welfare’ networks provide the
Gazan population with limited options:

(1) They can support and defend Hamas’ ideology and Hamas’ tactics (including the use of human shields) – be it out of conviction, existential necessity, fear, or due to lack of alternatives.

(2) They can support Hamas’ ideology, but reject Hamas’ tactics.

(3) They can passively or actively break with Hamas’ ideology and reject Hamas’ tactics, although in doing so they risk loss of life, livelihood, property, and collateral social and familial degradation and distancing (this can include emigrating).

Given these choices for Gazans, Israel’s use of PsyOps would not only need to capture first order repercussions for Gazans choosing to reject ideology and/or practices but it would also need to consider second and third order effects of Gazans who would prefer to stay in Gaza or cannot leave Gaza (for a variety of reasons). The likelihood of a narrative or strategic communications plan to have this penetration is unlikely. Furthermore, the inability of Israel to provide alternatives for Gazans could backfire and provide more fodder for Hamas to recruit
and retain supporters (active and passive). Should Israel or Israeli partners not be able to fill the vacuum provided by Gazans breaking with Hamas, the Gazan population could be placed in a more vulnerable and exploitable position by Hamas and foreign sympathisers who will seize upon this narrative for their own purposes.

Successful PsyOps plans should ideally move audiences along a psycho-social continuum that spans internalising messaging using critical thinking to externalising behavioural changes.

Consequently, PsyOps must:

(1) Foment dissent in targeted populations;

and

(2) Produce active and passive rejection of a worldview or set of associated practices.

Should the first pillar be achieved without the second, the operation will likely be unsuccessful. There is a limited likelihood of success in the case of Hamas’ use of lawfare and Israel’s ability to successfully counter these messages through PsyOps.

PsyOps during times of peace (or absence of conflict) is more strategic than during active military operations. PsyOps aimed at the Palestinian population, at Hamas’ leaders and militants, and at the Western public (and
maybe even the Muslim/Arab world) all require different narrative streams: targeting each audience effectively requires understanding how each audience consumes information as well as aligning that with the effects that Israel is seeking to achieve. Furthermore, the level of sub-group targeting will also impact both the structure,
content, and desired outcome. While the chances of generating substantial influence during inter-conflict periods is relatively low due to the reasons already listed, an operational or tactical approach during a military operation can find varying levels of success."

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 21:41

DownNative · 09/10/2023 21:35

Yes, civilian deaths will be the result.

But as I've explained previously in detail that is a direct consequence of Hamas abusing the protection given to civilians and civilian infrastructure under International Humanitarian Law. The behaviour of Hamas increases the likelihood of Israel retaliating with missiles and other measures.

Since 1945, there hasn't really been a conventional conflict between conventional forces. Ukraine and Gulf War 1991 are the very few exceptions. The majority of conflicts since 1945 have been what we call irregular conflicts, i.e. guerilla aka terrorist groups against usually conventional State forces who then have to adapt to become counter-terrorist specialists.

Terrorist groups do this in the first place because they know they cannot match a States firepower like for like. They also do it because they KNOW that first impressions often shapes how people around the world think about the conflict. Terrorist groups are usually very good at propaganda.

NATO StratCom COE identified in 2019 some measures States can take to counter Terrorist atrocities and propaganda. I've listed them here:

  • Strategically, nations should prepare to publicly justify their position, and reveal their adversary’s use of civilians in combat.
  • Target audiences should be thoroughly considered, including governments, NGOs, transnational organisations, colleges and universities, and general public opinion (including social media platforms and other fora). Such a plan should be an inherent part of any strategy, and should be prepared before commencing any military operation.
  • Operationally, priority should be given to information activities aimed at the very civilians who are used as human shields, in order to undermine the adversary and convince civilians to actively or passively refuse to serve as human shields.
  • Governments should thoroughly investigate every case in which the military is accused of committing war crimes, even if the alleged government knows the claims to be false. Governments should not ignore any claims, as this allows the adversary to control the narrative.
  • Prevention: Risk and Crisis Communications - basically means avoid undermining commitment to international law.
  • Mitigation: Establish Transparent Early Warning Systems & Investigative Mechanisms - basically means identify a terrorist group's attempts to use lawfare against a State.
  • Rather than merely reacting to accusations of war crimes, governments should consider the use of legal instruments to actively counter adversaries who use human shields. They should direct their intelligence agencies to gain access to materials that prove the adversary’s illegal use of human shields, and publicise these materials in international tribunals.
  • Integrated Communication - basically means the State should make excellent use of various communication methods such as social media in order to target an audience and tailor the message for each one appropriately in order to prevent the terrorist's narrative predominating. States should also create partnerships with local and global news outlets to ensure accurate information is disseminated.
  • Strategic Planning of PsyOps Campaigns (detailed below):

"Given the demographic and geographic conditions within which Hamas operates, there is a relationship between geographic proximity and governance where Hamas uses its governance framework to control (providing or withholding) access to vital goods and services. Reliance on or rejection of ‘alternative welfare’ networks provide the
Gazan population with limited options:

(1) They can support and defend Hamas’ ideology and Hamas’ tactics (including the use of human shields) – be it out of conviction, existential necessity, fear, or due to lack of alternatives.

(2) They can support Hamas’ ideology, but reject Hamas’ tactics.

(3) They can passively or actively break with Hamas’ ideology and reject Hamas’ tactics, although in doing so they risk loss of life, livelihood, property, and collateral social and familial degradation and distancing (this can include emigrating).

Given these choices for Gazans, Israel’s use of PsyOps would not only need to capture first order repercussions for Gazans choosing to reject ideology and/or practices but it would also need to consider second and third order effects of Gazans who would prefer to stay in Gaza or cannot leave Gaza (for a variety of reasons). The likelihood of a narrative or strategic communications plan to have this penetration is unlikely. Furthermore, the inability of Israel to provide alternatives for Gazans could backfire and provide more fodder for Hamas to recruit
and retain supporters (active and passive). Should Israel or Israeli partners not be able to fill the vacuum provided by Gazans breaking with Hamas, the Gazan population could be placed in a more vulnerable and exploitable position by Hamas and foreign sympathisers who will seize upon this narrative for their own purposes.

Successful PsyOps plans should ideally move audiences along a psycho-social continuum that spans internalising messaging using critical thinking to externalising behavioural changes.

Consequently, PsyOps must:

(1) Foment dissent in targeted populations;

and

(2) Produce active and passive rejection of a worldview or set of associated practices.

Should the first pillar be achieved without the second, the operation will likely be unsuccessful. There is a limited likelihood of success in the case of Hamas’ use of lawfare and Israel’s ability to successfully counter these messages through PsyOps.

PsyOps during times of peace (or absence of conflict) is more strategic than during active military operations. PsyOps aimed at the Palestinian population, at Hamas’ leaders and militants, and at the Western public (and
maybe even the Muslim/Arab world) all require different narrative streams: targeting each audience effectively requires understanding how each audience consumes information as well as aligning that with the effects that Israel is seeking to achieve. Furthermore, the level of sub-group targeting will also impact both the structure,
content, and desired outcome. While the chances of generating substantial influence during inter-conflict periods is relatively low due to the reasons already listed, an operational or tactical approach during a military operation can find varying levels of success."

Edited

That's a very long reply.

But basically, dropping bombs and missiles into a city will result in civilian deaths.

MrTiddlesTheCat · 09/10/2023 21:44

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 21:18

"No protected person may be punished for any offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property is prohibited."

Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals.

As I said POWs.

rinbaud · 09/10/2023 21:47

That's a lot of words to say I don't care - they started it, so they’ve got it coming. We are better than them, surely. It takes a certain mind to say see say a bombed hospital with maybe hundreds of deaths and think collateral damage. Hamas want a hugely disproportionate response, like 9/11 they are willing it as it plays into their victimhood in the Arab world. They want the Middle East on fire.

yummyscummymummy01 · 09/10/2023 21:52

The only way to deal with Hamas in the long term is to deprive it of its supporters. Contrary to what's been written here starving the people there and depriving them of resources will only increase support for Hamas not deplete it. Surely that must be one lesson that can be taken from what has already passed? People there have become increasingly angry and desperate as their situation has not improved.

To be clear Hamas' actions have disgusted me and I want to see them gone for the sake of both sides, I just don't see how more suffering will achieve that.

DownNative · 09/10/2023 21:52

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 21:41

That's a very long reply.

But basically, dropping bombs and missiles into a city will result in civilian deaths.

That response just shows you've NOT really read what I've said about the options open to States such as Israel in dealing with terrorist groups like Hamas who use civilians as human shields! 🤦‍♂️

In short, you're misrepresenting what has been said. Your oversimplified responses simply demonstrates you don't really understand the complexity of the situation. Especially when it comes to how a State responds.

Re-read it again and you'll see what the available options are other than bombing....

PorcelinaV · 09/10/2023 21:59

I'm pretty sure they aren't allowed to starve them, but I don't know if they have a duty to provide their own resources to them.

rinbaud · 09/10/2023 22:00

For once a good article in the Mail highlighting that Iran wants to see slaughter committed in Gaza by Israel as it's the plan to start ww3 which is why the criminal savagery of the slaughter of the innocents was so brutal. Don't play into their hands. They would happily bring us all down. There are evil, malign minds behind this who would happily will on our destruction.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12611993/hamas-israel-gaza-palestine-911-mark-almond-china-russia-us.html

MARK ALMOND: Hamas savagery will change the world more than 9/11

MARK ALMOND: Monstrous in its scale, pitiless in its savagery, this unprecedented attack has ramifications that may be felt far beyond the Middle East.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12611993/hamas-israel-gaza-palestine-911-mark-almond-china-russia-us.html