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When does terrorism become war?

975 replies

mids2019 · 07/10/2023 09:19

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

OP posts:
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DownNative · 09/10/2023 22:01

rinbaud · 09/10/2023 21:47

That's a lot of words to say I don't care - they started it, so they’ve got it coming. We are better than them, surely. It takes a certain mind to say see say a bombed hospital with maybe hundreds of deaths and think collateral damage. Hamas want a hugely disproportionate response, like 9/11 they are willing it as it plays into their victimhood in the Arab world. They want the Middle East on fire.

If that's directed at me, then it shows you've failed to understand what has been said. If you actually carefully read it, you'll find it discusses what options is available to States in dealing with terrorist groups like Hamas who use civilians as human shields.

As I've said previously, terrorist groups operate amongst the civilian population and use civilian infrastructure in ways that's prohibited under International Humanitarian Law. For these illegal groups, this kind of terrorism is a win-win.

But for EVERY State on the planet faced with in future OR dealing with terrorist threats NOW its very much a lose-lose scenario.

The reality is that FAILURE to respond ultimately means terrorist groups CAN protect their assets. In other words, their members become emboldened, they attract new members, existing weaponry remains intact, new weapons flow in and they INCREASE coercive control over the population they're operating amongst.

Finally, please don't attempt to use the Strawman Argument Fallacy with me again. It doesn't work and is a waste of everyone's time.

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 22:02

DownNative · 09/10/2023 21:52

That response just shows you've NOT really read what I've said about the options open to States such as Israel in dealing with terrorist groups like Hamas who use civilians as human shields! 🤦‍♂️

In short, you're misrepresenting what has been said. Your oversimplified responses simply demonstrates you don't really understand the complexity of the situation. Especially when it comes to how a State responds.

Re-read it again and you'll see what the available options are other than bombing....

I don't need to.

When you drop a bomb or fire a missile, especially in a crowded city, it is likely you will kill civilians.

There may be a lot of reasons, you may not have any options, you might find a way of justifying it...but it is likely you will kill civilians.

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 22:05

And yes, it is a lose lose situation for the person who gives the order to fire the missile or drop the bomb.

And - the original response was due to someone saying "fact check" about babies being killed.

Sadly, this targetting of Gaza will mean civilian deaths.

Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 22:09

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 22:02

I don't need to.

When you drop a bomb or fire a missile, especially in a crowded city, it is likely you will kill civilians.

There may be a lot of reasons, you may not have any options, you might find a way of justifying it...but it is likely you will kill civilians.

Actually Israel are extremely good at targeting. They can hit a specific apartment, even if it's not at the top of the building without destroying the rest of the building. They give warnings, as you know, just in case - and even where debris hits another building, you'll note no one dies e.g. the case of some debris hitting a UN school yesterday. This isn't an accident, it's the result of careful attention by the Israelis.

So relative to most urban warfare situations, very few civilians will die. Unless you trust Hamas' word on who is a civilian, because they're highly incentivised to lie.

EasternStandard · 09/10/2023 22:11

rinbaud · 09/10/2023 22:00

For once a good article in the Mail highlighting that Iran wants to see slaughter committed in Gaza by Israel as it's the plan to start ww3 which is why the criminal savagery of the slaughter of the innocents was so brutal. Don't play into their hands. They would happily bring us all down. There are evil, malign minds behind this who would happily will on our destruction.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12611993/hamas-israel-gaza-palestine-911-mark-almond-china-russia-us.html

That is a scary read

I’m not sure what Biden was thinking with that $6bn to Iran

JuvenileEmu · 09/10/2023 22:15

mids2019 · 09/10/2023 20:01

I also think this is really a time for the UK police to break up groups celebrating the attacks under the guise of standing up for the Palestinian people. I believe in free speech but at this juncture then isn't such behaviour verging on hate crime and at the very least extremely disrespectful.

A Jewish poster has posted about the threats and violence that the Jewish community is facing in London right now. The police seem to be doing nothing. It's appalling.

DownNative · 09/10/2023 22:16

yummyscummymummy01 · 09/10/2023 21:52

The only way to deal with Hamas in the long term is to deprive it of its supporters. Contrary to what's been written here starving the people there and depriving them of resources will only increase support for Hamas not deplete it. Surely that must be one lesson that can be taken from what has already passed? People there have become increasingly angry and desperate as their situation has not improved.

To be clear Hamas' actions have disgusted me and I want to see them gone for the sake of both sides, I just don't see how more suffering will achieve that.

The problem is HOW to deprive Hamas of its supporters?

It's clear that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas - a 2021 poll put it at 53%, for example.

A minority of Palestinians do NOT support Hamas.

Of this issue, NATO StratCom COE stated the following:

"Local Gazans are not necessarily ideologically linked with Hamas’ struggles, but rather are facing existential crises, e.g. loss of life, livelihood, property, and controlled access to basic necessities (e.g. food/
water/medicines), and this level of duress causes Gazans to choose the closer, more tangible support
system, i.e. Hamas.

The Gazan defensive worldview is deeply engrained into the social fabric of the population. Children are
raised to revile the enemy, i.e. Israel. There is limited critical thinking and access to information or to independent analysis. This significantly limits Israel’s ability to influence the Gazan population in such a way
that it recognises the actual benefits of not being aligned with Hamas."

This means it's highly challenging to separate Palestinians who support Hamas from Palestinians who do not.

Additionally, the social fabric created in Gaza by Hamas means they can continue to derive support from the Gazan population into the future.

In my other longer post, I use examples from NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence to suggest how Israel might deal with it.

One of the options suggested by NATO StratCom COE is for Israel to provide alternatives for Gazans choosing to reject Hamas ideology. Failure to do so will increase the real risk of more of the Gazan population supporting Hamas.

The alternatives must be available because Gazans only have three options open to them. Israel and other States MUST be ready step into any power vacuum should the people of Gaza manage to oust Hamas in future as well.

NATO StratCom COE reports are well worth reading for those who are SERIOUSLY interested in the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians.

Sheila2298 · 09/10/2023 22:21

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Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 22:22

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Unfortunately I can't click on the link as it's part of terrorist infrastructure. Could you provide something from a reasonable source, thanks?

DownNative · 09/10/2023 22:22

cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 22:02

I don't need to.

When you drop a bomb or fire a missile, especially in a crowded city, it is likely you will kill civilians.

There may be a lot of reasons, you may not have any options, you might find a way of justifying it...but it is likely you will kill civilians.

You're admitting you really cannot be bothered reading what is said correctly. Anyone who is seriously interested in terrorism, security and counter-terrorism would read carefully.

Let me make it clear to you the options I've provided from NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence isn't advocating blowing up civilians and civilian infrastructure willy-nilly!

Which you'd have known if you'd bothered to properly read it. 🤦‍♂️

The one thing you WILL find with my posts is reasoned argument drawing on various types of evidence, including personal experience of terrorism. In the case of my post to you, the evidence I used was NATO StratCom COE 2019 report on "Hamas' Use Of Human Shields In Gaza 2008-2014".

Sheila2298 · 09/10/2023 22:24

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1dayatatime · 09/10/2023 22:26

@DownNative

"
The problem is HOW to deprive Hamas of its supporters?

It's clear that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas - a 2021 poll put it at 53%, for example.

A minority of Palestinians do NOT support Hamas"

+++

I agree that the majority of Palestinians support Hamas especially after attacks like this - it fuels their nationalism and victim status.

A military intervention into Gaza will not break support for Hamas. A few weeks of no food, water and electricity has a better chance of reducing support for Hamas.

Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 22:26

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I didn't say that. I just don't use Al Jazeera, as if you spoke Arabic, you'd know their coverage is disgusting pro-terror garbage. As I'm not a terrorist sympathiser, I don't consume their content. That's perfectly reasonable.

As I said, some civilians will die as Hamas use them as human shields. Because we don't do as terrorists tell us, lest we all live under ISIS control, strikes will proceed - but civilian deaths are extremely limited compared to any other military or urban warfare situation.

StowOnTheWold · 09/10/2023 22:29

DownNative · 09/10/2023 21:52

That response just shows you've NOT really read what I've said about the options open to States such as Israel in dealing with terrorist groups like Hamas who use civilians as human shields! 🤦‍♂️

In short, you're misrepresenting what has been said. Your oversimplified responses simply demonstrates you don't really understand the complexity of the situation. Especially when it comes to how a State responds.

Re-read it again and you'll see what the available options are other than bombing....

@cakeorwine

And as I asked you at 21:02 -

In the meantime, what would you do to eradicate the cancer that is Hamas? The cancer that causes Arab and Israeli suffering? The cancer that wants to self destruct Arabs and Israelis for an ideology that only it seeks? Hamas is the monster in the room now. It has to be destroyed.

What would you do? Is it time to stop trying to find idealistic solutions?

Sheila2298 · 09/10/2023 22:30

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cakeorwine · 09/10/2023 22:33

StowOnTheWold · 09/10/2023 22:29

@cakeorwine

And as I asked you at 21:02 -

In the meantime, what would you do to eradicate the cancer that is Hamas? The cancer that causes Arab and Israeli suffering? The cancer that wants to self destruct Arabs and Israelis for an ideology that only it seeks? Hamas is the monster in the room now. It has to be destroyed.

What would you do? Is it time to stop trying to find idealistic solutions?

How the hell do I know how to stop Hamas?

I do know that dropping bombs and firing missiles will result in civilian deaths.
Even if well targeted

I am not sure if anyone disagrees with that.

EasternStandard · 09/10/2023 22:34

What are people’s thoughts on Biden $6bn for hostages and Iran

It’s seems completely unwise to me, maybe I’m missing the non scary part of it

DownNative · 09/10/2023 22:35

StowOnTheWold · 09/10/2023 22:29

@cakeorwine

And as I asked you at 21:02 -

In the meantime, what would you do to eradicate the cancer that is Hamas? The cancer that causes Arab and Israeli suffering? The cancer that wants to self destruct Arabs and Israelis for an ideology that only it seeks? Hamas is the monster in the room now. It has to be destroyed.

What would you do? Is it time to stop trying to find idealistic solutions?

Exactly. Whatever ideas anyone has in their heads when it comes to conflict zones absolutely HAS to be practical in the real world.

And, most importantly, takes note of the actual reality of combat in real time in addition to the methods used by the participants as well as the grievances they respectively claim.

There are NO idealistic solutions to armed conflict at any level. Its too dangerous and complicated for that.

Sheila2298 · 09/10/2023 22:37

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1dayatatime · 09/10/2023 22:38

@cakeorwine

I do know that dropping bombs and firing missiles will result in civilian deaths.
Even if well targeted

++++

I don't disagree and in addition I am sure that dropping bombs and missiles will completely fail to remove Hamas.

The best solution is to cut off the food, water and electricity supplies and get the ordinary Palestinians to remove Hamas.

DownNative · 09/10/2023 22:38

EasternStandard · 09/10/2023 22:34

What are people’s thoughts on Biden $6bn for hostages and Iran

It’s seems completely unwise to me, maybe I’m missing the non scary part of it

I'll keep my view on that short and sweet tonight!

Dangerous precedent are my immediate thoughts. Very.

EasternStandard · 09/10/2023 22:39

DownNative · 09/10/2023 22:38

I'll keep my view on that short and sweet tonight!

Dangerous precedent are my immediate thoughts. Very.

Yes. I always thought it was we don’t negotiate

Making me nervous

Sheila2298 · 09/10/2023 22:41

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Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 22:42

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Don't you dare throw the Holocaust in the face of the Jewish people. You have revealed your true self. Disgraceful comments.

Sheila2298 · 09/10/2023 22:43

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