When does terrorism become war?

[mids2019]

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

Of we take parallels.to the US war on terror after 9/11 America pursued long term goals and took time before deciding on responses. If we quite rightly we believe Israel has the right to self defence then surely the international community must allow time and required freedom for the defence. It can be argued defence of the Israeli people now requires as fully as possible the decapitation of Hamas leadership and removal of military infrastructure which can only be achieved by ground action in Gaza.

I think the IDF should be open about their goals and allow some transparency to its operation to show the world that it is acting in a way as far as possible does limit casualties but we cannot forget this necessary response to one where nearly 300 young people were summarily executed at a party possibly begging for their lives, where children have been taken hostage and no mercy has been shown to families desperately trying to flee murderous gun men.

At some point peace will be discussed but in the interests of justice then this is not the time.

Yes thank you for telling me what I already know.

Im well aware of the roof knock policy.

Hamas are terrorists and issuing threats like terrorist do. But the treat is specific to attacks without warning on civilians.* *

The situation is at risk spiraling out of anyone's control and i dont believe interpreting words to make them appear worse help in any way.

I won't insult your level of education because that won't help this discussion in any way either.

This is certainly comparable to 9/11, and I think your perspective is very fair. Decision making in Israel is a very unique process, especially within political and military leadership cricles. No opinion is crowded out, all ideas need to be heard. That leads to often very creative solutions that would otherwise go unheard. Israel deserves the space to determine how best to protect itself for the future, and get justice for those raped and slaughtered, taken hostage and traumatised.

It's a shame that the Scottish leadership are spending their time purposefully misinterpreting clear statements and on family issues, rather than the Scottish man murdered in Israel by Hamas. A shame, but hardly surprising.

Dealing with Hamas as fully as possible is right, but the number of civilian casualties this will involve is horrifying. How do you protect people so closely crowded together, especially given Hamas likes to use them as shields? It's the worst situation.

@Asthebellcurves

I agree. To this end the Israelis need to politely declined to engage with some quarters to act with 'constraint' as there is a thin line between constraint and capitulation. It is no secret that Israel will enter Gaza with the support of most Western governments and this is just.

Well put your education into practice then. Don't suggest Hamas' false arguments are valid.

Problem here is Hamas is a terrorist group who operates within the civilian population and uses a range of civilian infrastructure to launch attacks from.

It's a classic modus operandi of terrorist groups globally and Hamas is a hybrid threat. Meaning they threat Israel's security not just through direct attacks, but by using civilians as shields. That creates a serious dilemma for Israel for obvious reasons.

If Israel don't attack, Hamas will strengthen and launch attack after attack. Hamas will be able to protect their assets, i.e. members and weaponry.

If Israel attack, they risk losing support within Israel and the international community.

For Hamas, it's a win-win scenario. But for Israel it's a lose-lose one.

Hamas rely on global audiences not understanding the actual context of why Palestinian deaths are much higher than Israeli ones.

NATO StratCom COE, NATO Command, United Nations and various governments around the world understand the reason for high Palestinian deaths is largely because Hamas operates amongst civilians and launch rockets from civilian infrastructure. The UN has said before they've found Hamas storing rockets in UN schools as well as digging tunnels underneath them to transport explosives whilst children are playing above ground.

All of that is illegal under International Humanitarian Law.

Hamas' hybrid threat is also in the form of a propaganda war. They like to use what is known as useful idiots to build support against Israel. These people are often not well informed on what Hamas actually does.

It's no surprise Hamas plan to murder civilian hostages. They've abused Palestinian and Israeli human rights for decades now.

@GrouchyKiwi

what are the options? It is known Hamas use their own people as human shields so what can Israel do to defend itself? If Israel did not respond won't there be a possible recurrence in due course?

I hate the thought of unnecessary death as much as the next person but I think Israel has few options and maybe this was the rather sickening intent of Hamas.

Unbelievable.

I also think this is really a time for the UK police to break up groups celebrating the attacks under the guise of standing up for the Palestinian people. I believe in free speech but at this juncture then isn't such behaviour verging on hate crime and at the very least extremely disrespectful.

Anyone celebrating or supporting Hamas in the UK at these 'rallies' is committing a criminal act, and I'd like to see Sunak commit to prosecuting every last one of them.

Thank you for your measured response and I largely agree.

I do understand the very difficult situation Israel has in responding and the deliberate tactics of Hamas to reduce risk to themselves and increase risk to civilians.

I have absolutely no trust in Hamas assurances of the treatment of hostages.

The situation is beyond horrific and doesn't need talking up.

I also believe an immediate response of indescriminately depriving 2+ million impoverished people of food and water and potentially very high civilian deaths is a move that could easily backfire within Gaza and in the international community.

The options to all sides are unpleasant.

Firstly you have Hamas whose stated objective is to eliminate all Jews from Israel so negotiating with that mindset (assuming you could even find someone in Israel now willing to do so) is not possible. So there needs to be a regime change in Gaza and given that since Hamad were elected in 2006 they have stopped all further elections and are now a dictatorship, a democratic removal of them is not an option

Secondly a direct military intervention into Gaza is a) going to be incredibly costly in both civilian and Israeli lives b) cause widespread destruction of property and infrastructure and c) will not remove Hamas anyway but probably make them stronger.

Which leaves non military pressure / sanctions and more precisely cutting off Israeli supplies of food, water and electricity to Gaza. After all cutting off food and water to the country that has just attacked you seems pretty reasonable. The rationale being that such economic pressure will quickly encourage ordinary Palestinian civilians to get rid of Hamas in order to stop the sanctions.

It may not work but it is a better option than blowing the crap out of each other and peaceful dialogue is impossible whilst Hamas are in charge.

Incidentally the Egyptian military's proposed response to stop the terrorist attacks from Gaza against Egypt in northern Sinai was to carpet bomb the place and Israel actually talked them out of it.

@1dayatatime

There may be logic in showing the Palestinian people that they have no future with a Hamas leadership and putting the Gaza strip under pressure through dealing it off may provoke a rebellion against Hamas as even the most ruthless of leaders will find it difficult painting authority when it's oppressed subjects are denied basics.

I fully agree.

Imagine if you had rallies in support of Islamic State terror attacks for 7/7 bombings or Paris terrorist attacks. They would have been arrested immediately so why it seemingly OK to support attacks on Israel - is it because of barely disguised anti semitism?

@mids2019

Cutting off food, water and electricity to focus minds in Gaza may or may not work.

But we do know that bombing the crap out of each other doesn't.

I suppose the dead babies (5 or them I've seen in the Gaza hospital on X) I won't link that here are OK then and from some of the comments of the thread millions of Arabs in Gaza are complicit, so they get their just deserts. Jeez where is your humanity - if you do the same as them then are you any better ?

I would also like the BBC to use the word 'terrorists' when referring to Hamas and stop using the word 'militants' as a soft way of reporting.

Especially when covering the UN Secretary General, António Guterres, speech today with a clear reference to terror perpetrated against Israeli citizens.

We need to be very alert to the language used by the people we think we trust.

The only people who demonstrably want to slaughter children are Hamas, who should cease to use them as human shields for their terror. Equally, it's important to check these things, as Hamas frequently use fake and stolen images of children to convince well meaning people that they should support terrorism and the genocide of the Jewish people.

@mids2019

"It is no secret that Israel will enter Gaza with the support of most Western governments and this is just."

+++

Actually I think that Israeli military intervention into Gaza itself would be a mistake.

It would be costly in lives for both the Israeli Army and Gaza civilians, it will further reduce the place to rubble increasing the economic failure of the place and lastly it will end up strengthening Hamas rather than defeat.

Far better to just cut off Israeli supplies to Gaza of food, water and electricity.

@StowOnTheWold

to use the words militant or fighters is tantamount to glorifying murderers. One thing that annoyed me was when the BBC reported a total death figure for the conflict including murdered civilians, soldiers and possibly dead terrorists in one amalgam figure. Israel has suffered a terrorist atrocity and despite a wider conflict we should take time to offer Israel our sympathies and support in the same we have done for
countries and cities that have suffered similar terrorist atrocities.

Collective punishment of the innocent along with the guilty is a war crime. If you cut off the water, power, fuel and food to a population of 2 million people you are consigning thousands to their horrible deaths and encouraging barbarism. The monsters of Hamas will no doubt be well-fed and watered I can't see them being bothered, that's probably what they want they have a death wish after all.

Because firing bombs and missiles into cities never results in civilian deaths?

Yes,there might well be propaganda and what people say has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Yes, the Israelis warn people.

But firing bombs and missiles, no matter how accurate, will result in civilian deaths. Including babies.

@1dayatatime

It may very well be difficult but I think I would support any feasible means of removing Hamas from power. Remember the US and allies removed the Taliban for a considerable period of time in Afghanistan although it was costly. Obviously Hamas will try and take every propaganda opportunity available but maybe this is an opportunity that must be taken? It is going to be a long slog for the IDF and Israel and I think this is known to western government supporters including the UK and the US. Perhaps like in Ukraine we need to be in for the long haul.

So you believe Israel should continue to provide its resources to a state which has slaughtered and raped its people? And now threatens to execute civilian hostages?

Israel is under no legal obligation to continue providing goods and services to Gaza. I assume you're also against the export bans to Russia, as it deprives them of resources too. Or is it just Israel you specifically take issue with?