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When does terrorism become war?

975 replies

mids2019 · 07/10/2023 09:19

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

OP posts:
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69
Truthisbetterthanlies · 09/10/2023 12:00

loislovesstewie · 09/10/2023 11:57

If anyone is interested there is there is a post on X [Twitter] of fans of Persepolis FC chanting ' You can stick the Palestine flag up your arse'. Considering support of Israel is a crime in Iran that takes some bravery.

Yes, it's been notable in the last few months how much ordinary Iranians support Israel - contrary to what I expected, certainly.

BeggyMitchell · 09/10/2023 12:07

loislovesstewie · 09/10/2023 11:57

If anyone is interested there is there is a post on X [Twitter] of fans of Persepolis FC chanting ' You can stick the Palestine flag up your arse'. Considering support of Israel is a crime in Iran that takes some bravery.

Quite a few of my Muslim friends are showing support for Israel online.

W0tnow · 09/10/2023 12:23

My daughter asked me about this this morning. It’s probably best she reads up on the subject and the history. Can anyone recommend a book/books? She 16.

Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 13:13

W0tnow · 09/10/2023 12:23

My daughter asked me about this this morning. It’s probably best she reads up on the subject and the history. Can anyone recommend a book/books? She 16.

Noa Tishby’s ‘Israel’ is very accessible, or Shimon Peres’ ‘No Room for Small Dreams.’ The Peres Center has facilitated amazing peace building between Palestinians and Israelis over the years, not afraid to say I shed several tears at his funeral.

Rosenthal’s ‘The Israelis’ is also a great examination of the diversity within Israel and the issues the nation faces.

Surplus2requirements · 09/10/2023 13:45

I feel its slightly off topic but seeing as its being discussed a major factor in bringing peace in NI was the willingness of the Gov to talk, first in secret and then openly.

justteanbiscuits · 09/10/2023 13:51

It's all hideous and awful. I have neighbours who are friends from Israel - they are so worried for their family and friends there. But, one of my sons best friends is Palestinian, and I have heard such awful heartbreaking stories from them.

As someone else said, it is possible to completely condemn the actions of Hamas while also understanding the Palestinian perspective. I would imagine I would act in a very irrational manner if the city I was trapped in was being ever made smaller and conditions more and more inhumane. World governments should have been providing more support to both countries since the creation of the 'new' Israel as it were rather than left them to it and slowly watched this awfulness unfold.

Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 14:16

justteanbiscuits · 09/10/2023 13:51

It's all hideous and awful. I have neighbours who are friends from Israel - they are so worried for their family and friends there. But, one of my sons best friends is Palestinian, and I have heard such awful heartbreaking stories from them.

As someone else said, it is possible to completely condemn the actions of Hamas while also understanding the Palestinian perspective. I would imagine I would act in a very irrational manner if the city I was trapped in was being ever made smaller and conditions more and more inhumane. World governments should have been providing more support to both countries since the creation of the 'new' Israel as it were rather than left them to it and slowly watched this awfulness unfold.

After 2005, Gaza was given freely to the Palestinian people as a test for peace by the Israelis. They elected Hamas, committed to a genocide of the Jewish people, and are surprised that they don’t have happy neighbours. Despite all of this, Israel continually provided resources for Gaza to support its people.

Besides, Egypt maintains the blockade too. Yet we don’t see Palestinians invading and raping Egyptian women, and slaughtering Egyptian babies. Why is that? Gaza is an anti-Semitic hellscape and the responsibility lies with Hamas and their millions of supporters.

Israel shows far more grace even now than any other country would in the same situation. If this happened to the UK, Gaza would be a crater by now.

yummyscummymummy01 · 09/10/2023 14:40

I think it's entirely possible to condemn Hamas and their actions whilst also feeling sorry for the people of Gaza. I'm sure there are many there who don't support Hamas but will pay for their action with their lives. There is nowhere for these people to go as they are trapped.

Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 14:46

Perhaps we would, if the people of Gaza did not support, celebrate and even elect Hamas to begin with. There is nowhere for Gazans to go because no one wants them: Egypt doesn't want terrorists in the Sinai, Jordan views them as troublemakers, the Lebanese keep them in camps, the West Bank doesn't want 'infiltration' from Gaza and the collapse of their state.

Ironically, they are treated the best by Israel. Maybe choosing to invade, slaughter, rape, and take hostages wasn't a good idea?

yummyscummymummy01 · 09/10/2023 15:06

I don't think the children get a vote? Were normal people in Gaza consulted about this action beforehand? Of course they weren't and I'm sure have been surprised by this too. Whatever has been done to Israel doesn't mean that a brutal response is justified.

Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 15:13

yummyscummymummy01 · 09/10/2023 15:06

I don't think the children get a vote? Were normal people in Gaza consulted about this action beforehand? Of course they weren't and I'm sure have been surprised by this too. Whatever has been done to Israel doesn't mean that a brutal response is justified.

A brutal response is necessary. Israel must deter future attacks.

You may want to look up what children learn in school in Gaza, schools that are more like radicalisation camps, or the huge number of stolen pictures of kids from all around the world the Palestinians claim to be victims of Israeli strikes. Or the child soldiers, or the use of children as human shields for terrorists. Hamas do these things so people like you get angry with Israeli self defence and public pressure prevents meaningful counterterrorism action. Don’t do Hamas’ bidding.

etmoietmoietmoi · 09/10/2023 15:26

Egypt doesn't want terrorists in the Sinai, Jordan views them as troublemakers, the Lebanese keep them in camps, the West Bank doesn't want 'infiltration' from Gaza and the collapse of their state.

Yup this is a crucial point, the hostility of countries like Jordan towards Palestinian refugees (specifically from Gaza) just makes their situation even more distressing. Massively discriminated against and treated with no dignity.

HermioneWeasley · 09/10/2023 15:31

BlurredEdges · 08/10/2023 22:54

@Oioicaptain as a 3rd generation British Jew and Londoner, I just want to say thank you.

It is an incredibly messy and complex and horrific situation but it means a lot to me to know that there are non-jewish British people who share our pain.

Seeing the rape and murder and torture of Jewish women and children celebrated in my own city has broken me today. Your post means a lot xx

Another non Jew who stands with you. Jews are the most oppressed group in history.

BeggyMitchell · 09/10/2023 15:37

Jews are the most oppressed group in history

Absolutely, if people don't understand this they either have no grasp of world history/pogroms/exiles (all before the holocaust)at all or take all their learning from an angry medieval holy book I.e another ancient fairy tale that ideally we should have all evolved beyond. But the world is not ideal.

Another non-Jew standing with you.

yummyscummymummy01 · 09/10/2023 15:42

@BeggyMitchell don't say offensive things like that. It just ends up with threads being deleted and the conversation, which is useful and informative (for the most part), in being taken down.

BeggyMitchell · 09/10/2023 16:14

If you find my post offensive then by all means report it.

That's a fair and democratic option you have.

BlurredEdges · 09/10/2023 16:26

HermioneWeasley · 09/10/2023 15:31

Another non Jew who stands with you. Jews are the most oppressed group in history.

Thank you xx and thank you @BeggyMitchell

A Jewish friend of mine drove her son to a hospital appointment in central London today and they had to go through a crowd of people shouting for death to israel and death to Jews. Her son is 12 yrs old with SEN. She had to try to explain that to him.

A car has just a few mins ago driven down my road blasting its horn over and over again. I didn't get to see it so I don't know if it was connected to the cars driving all over London with Palestinian and Hamas flags and beeping their horns. But it might well be (I live in a Jewish area). The fear is very very real and very very close to home.

1dayatatime · 09/10/2023 16:45

@etmoietmoietmoi

Yup this is a crucial point, the hostility of countries like Jordan towards Palestinian refugees (specifically from Gaza) just makes their situation even more distressing. Massively discriminated against and treated with no dignity.

+++

Well after the Six Day War in 1967 Jordan kindly took in large numbers of Palestinian refugees.

In return the political leadership of the Palestinians tried to overthrow the Jordanian Kingdom and take control which is not a very nice way to repay your hosts.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September

This is not a question of discrimination or lack of dignity but simply that since then the Jordanians have wanted nothing to do with the Palestinians, which given the history is perfectly understandable.

Jordan is an oasis of normality surrounded by nut job neighbours and nut job groups and wants to keep it that way.

DownNative · 09/10/2023 18:03

Surplus2requirements · 09/10/2023 13:45

I feel its slightly off topic but seeing as its being discussed a major factor in bringing peace in NI was the willingness of the Gov to talk, first in secret and then openly.

This is one of the biggest misunderstandings about the Northern Ireland peace process. The idea the UK Government was never open to talks doesn't stand up under close scrutiny.

It was the UK Government who always insisted that there can be no coercion of Ulster as far back as 1920s or earlier:

"I come now to the more vexed question of Ulster. Here we had all given a definitely clear pledge that, under no conditions, would we agree to any proposals that would involve the coercion of Ulster.....Therefore, on policy I have always been in favour of the pledge that there should be no coercion of Ulster.

We have never for a moment forgotten the pledge—not for an instant. That did not preclude us from endeavouring to persuade Ulster to come into an All-Ireland Parliament."

- David Lloyd George, the then Prime Minister, in the House of Commons on 14 December 1921.

Fast forward to the 1970s for relevancy.

The Northern Ireland Secretary of State, Willie Whitelaw held a meeting with PIRA leaders in 1972, some of whom were in prison. The Government allowed them to come out to England for this.

Does that sound like a Government not in favour of talks with a view to resolving the conflict?

Obviously not.

No, the problem was the PSF/PIRA leaders made unreasonable demands which no sovereign Government would have been able to accept. Basically, PIRA told Whitelaw they wanted the UK Government out of Northern Ireland and for the British Army to withdraw.

What would have been the result of that?

Full blown civil war.

Besides, PSF/PIRA had NO mandate from the people for their terrorism. 70% of Catholics didn't support them and the leader of the biggest Nationalist Party, John Hume told them publicly the Provo argument was wrong, partitionist, fascist and deeply out of date.

PSF/PIRA only wanted total victory. Hence their delusional "Freedom '74" posters. This is the classic fundamentalist terrorist position.

As PSF/PIRA saw it, political solutions proposed by the UK Government was evidence the Sovereign Power was crumbling or close to it. Like I said, a delusional view!

PIRAs view of the democratic 1973 referendum was this:

“The Border Poll will be viewed as one of the most stupid acts of the British Government, It is an insult to all Irish people that a foreign government should usurp the inalienable right of the people of this country to determine their own future."

And set bombs off in England on the same day!

This is evidence of a terrorist group NOT in the mood for a peaceful political settlement. See further PSF/PIRA statements below:

"There have been no discussions with the British Government or with any official acting on its behalf since the beginning of 1976. We now regard such talks as entirely futile and the only time we will talk to the British again is when they come to us and ask our help to seecure their immediate departure from Ireland."

And:

"We can't give up now and admit that the men and women we sent to their graves died for nothing. The struggle must continue now until victory is achieved and we are determined to do that."

And:

"Our aim now is to win the struggle on this occasion and we are prepared to make whatever sacrifices are necessary to achieve this."

The Sunningdale and Anglo-Irish Agreement eras both demonstrate to us all that the IRA would NOT have given up violence unless they were made to do so by the State's security forces. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the IRA would have given up violence in the 1990s for any other reason than defeat.

As long as fundamentalist terrorist groups believe they can win based on the prevailing health of their organisation, they’ll continue to use violence in aid of their objectives.

Once weakened, such groups will see their leadership drop their previously fundamentalist position and agree to whatever conditions the sovereign power or powers impose.

"Statesmanship consists not merely in the wisdom of your proposals, but in the choosing of the right moment. My right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley..........knows what it is to settle an action, and he knows it depends upon your choosing exactly the moment.

You must not choose it when the parties are full of fight, when they are confident they are going to win, when they are confident, not merely in the justice of their case, but in the invincibility of their counsel. Who can stand against it? That is not the time to settle. You have got to wait until difficulties have cropped up which they had never foreseen, when doubt begins to enter their minds as to the completeness of their victory, when the costs are mounting up, and the only smile is on the face of the solicitor, when they are tired out by pleadings and counter-pleadings and all the delays and wearing mechanism of the law. That is the time.

But if you propose too soon, it means not merely that you fail then, but that you interpose obstacles in the way of settling at the right time."

- David Lloyd George, the then Prime Minister, in the House of Commons on 14 December 1921.

In other words, you have to know when the enemy is defeated in order to impose conditions for a peace process.

That's why Frankie Quinn, senior member of the PIRA's East Tyrone brigade, said the following:

"We were saying the armed struggle’s failed, it can’t win. The jails are filling up, people are dying left, right and centre and the British are getting the better hand on us.

Obviously we knew in our hearts that we were deeply, deeply infiltrated at a very high level.

The armed struggle had to stop. We’d dump weapons, call the ceasefire, and then go into talks."

That's a sincere acknowledgement of defeat from a senior member of PIRA.

Another member of PIRA, Kieran Conway agreed with this and said the following:

"The attrition rate was just so appalling.

The SAS, the British intelligence services were obviously in a position to intercept most operations.

It was absolutely clear that we were losing if we hadn’t already lost the war and that it was time to cash in the chips.”

PIRA member John Crawley, an ex-US Marine before joining PIRA, asserted:

"It was a defeat for the Republican Movement, a complete military and ideological defeat across the board that opened up career paths for certain members of the leadership, but left us ideologically destroyed."

Crawley also described the British as "masters at counter-insurgency".

For PSF/PIRA anything less than total and outright victory is defeat.

To go back to David Lloyd George's 1921 statement above again, what the British Government did with the IRA in 1920 and 1998 can be summed up by Sun Tzu below:

"A surrounded army must be given a way out. The ancient rule of the charioteers says, “Surround them on three sides, leaving one side open, to show them a way to life. Show them a way to life so that they will not be in the mood to fight to the death…”

An enemy that knows it is defeated in all but name is given a way out to save face and spare further bloodshed.

And ONLY an enemy that knows it is defeated in all but name WILL take the conditions given by the dominant power.

That is the position the IRA found itself in 1998. It was defeated and so accepted the conditions of the British Government which had been resolute for most of the 20th Century.

PIRA achieved NONE of their long held key core demands in the Belfast Agreement. The British Government, on the other hand, achieved their key core goals.

The UK Government did give PSF/PIRA a face saving way out. This has been called the propaganda of the peace. I'll try to explain it another time.

DownNative · 09/10/2023 18:13

So, really the question is WHEN can any Government talk to a fundamentalist terrorist group?

It's definitely not at the beginning of their insurgency phrase as they believe most strongly at this point they WILL, CAN & SHOULD prevail.

Nor is it when they've restructured themselves from an insurgent group into a terrorist cell structure. Again, they STILL believe they WILL, CAN & SHOULD prevail.

What option does that leave?

Any talks will only be successful when the terrorist group cam see impending defeat or is ideologically defeated.

Terrorist groups do not really have the resources to defeat a Sovereign Government. Instead they aim to make the Government give up sooner or later and give in to their demands. However unreasonable those demands are.

What do people think is possible with Hamas in respect to the Israeli Government?

DownNative · 09/10/2023 18:32

I might as well introduce some of you to the SDLP's late Seamus Mallon's observation that the Belfast Agreement of 1998 was : "Sunningdale for slow learners."

Mallon meant the terrorists who completely rejected power sharing, principle of consent and UK Government presence in Northern Ireland were slow to realise they were very much in the wrong.

So, you have to defeat them or close to it to achieve a settlement.

Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 18:58

Hamas have now announced that they are ready to begin executing hostages. Surely now people will cease to defend these animals?

Surplus2requirements · 09/10/2023 19:19

Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 18:58

Hamas have now announced that they are ready to begin executing hostages. Surely now people will cease to defend these animals?

Threatened to in response if Israel bomb civilian housing without warning

The situation is horrific enough without twisting words to make it sound worse.

And yes I completely condemn Hamas

Asthebellcurves · 09/10/2023 19:22

Surplus2requirements · 09/10/2023 19:19

Threatened to in response if Israel bomb civilian housing without warning

The situation is horrific enough without twisting words to make it sound worse.

And yes I completely condemn Hamas

Which Israel have NEVER done, so why issue the threat? Who will define whether Israel did that? Hamas?? I don't trust their judgement, and I'm sure nor do you.

Regardless - Hamas are committing war crimes, threatening to specifically execute civilian hostages.

You can't twist the facts, Hamas and other groups in Gaza must be eliminated entirely.

StowOnTheWold · 09/10/2023 19:28

Surplus2requirements · 09/10/2023 19:19

Threatened to in response if Israel bomb civilian housing without warning

The situation is horrific enough without twisting words to make it sound worse.

And yes I completely condemn Hamas

The IDF routinely give warning. The gave warning an hour before they destroyed the Al Watan towers on Saturday 7th. Those towers housed Hamas' administration offices, some APN journalists and caretakers.

The 'roof knock' is very evident on the internet. Not one APN journalist was killed.

On the same day Hamas terrorists were raping and murdering innocent people, the IDF did not stop this policy of giving due warning.

This speaks volumes and you really need to educate yourself more.