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When does terrorism become war?

975 replies

mids2019 · 07/10/2023 09:19

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

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sleepyscientist · 08/10/2023 14:52

Hamas is labelled a terrorist organisation by the United States and the UK. Every time Isreal is accused of being the aggressor it's in the form of a terrorism raid (like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan) therefore should we not be standing with Israel as a nation? Or do we only do that when oil is involved?

Kallister · 08/10/2023 14:59

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Kallister · 08/10/2023 15:03

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Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 15:04

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It comes across in every post you make.

I doubt if it was your family that were being raped, massacred, tortured, taken hostage or their corpses desecrated, that you'd be cheering on people who said

" any action like this, there will be casualties. There is never any pure, clean warfare. If you have people stuck in a corner and being trodden on, they will resist."

It's always easy to be blase about the 'casualties', when you don't really see them as people at all, isn't it??

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 15:06

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Their founding charter does explicitly call for genocide of all Jews. The fact that Hamas toned it down a bit in 2017 is neither here nor there.

It's quite clear from yesterday's actions that Jewish genocide is still their goal. As also referenced in the infamous 'From the river to the sea' quote.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 15:08

And I'm astonished that you even have the chutzpah to claim after yesterday that Hamas "oppose Israel as a state, but do not hate Jews."

WTF??!

Did you just not read the news?? How do you think spitting on the corpse of a murdered woman helps oppose Israel as a state? This is clearly motivated by nothing other than genocidal hate.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 15:13

sleepyscientist · 08/10/2023 14:52

Hamas is labelled a terrorist organisation by the United States and the UK. Every time Isreal is accused of being the aggressor it's in the form of a terrorism raid (like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan) therefore should we not be standing with Israel as a nation? Or do we only do that when oil is involved?

Yes, it's because there is oil involved.

And because there are 1.8 billion Muslims but only 14 million Jews. (Yes, all those claiming Jews are really powerful somehow seem to manage to forget this enormous power differential.)

And because are approximately 50 Muslim majority countries in the world versus 1 Jewish state only. (Yet no-one seems to think that's an issue when suggesting Jews have no right even to that one state.)

They're frit, basically. Good thing the Israelis aren't.

DownNative · 08/10/2023 15:14

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PIRA was and remains a terrorist group. It was illegal in the United Kingdom AND the Republic of Ireland.

PIRA didn't even have majority support in Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland.

What point were you trying to make by mentioning PIRA?

Kallister · 08/10/2023 15:17

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Kallister · 08/10/2023 15:17

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bollihigh · 08/10/2023 15:22

Opinion | Haaretz Editorial
Editorial | Netanyahu Bears Responsibility for This Israel-Gaza War

The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu. The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession, when appointing Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir to key positions, while embracing a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians.
Netanyahu will certainly try to evade his responsibility and cast the blame on the heads of the army, Military Intelligence and the Shin Bet security service who, like their predecessors on the eve of the Yom Kippur War, saw a low probability of war with their preparations for a Hamas attack proving flawed.
They scorned the enemy and its offensive military capabilities. Over the next days and weeks, when the depth of Israel Defense Forces and intelligence failures come to light, a justified demand to replace them and take stock will surely arise.

However, the military and intelligence failure does not absolve Netanyahu of his overall responsibility for the crisis, as he is the ultimate arbiter of Israeli foreign and security affairs. Netanyahu is no novice in this role, like Ehud Olmert was in the Second Lebanon War. Nor is he ignorant in military matters, as Golda Meir in 1973 and Menachem Begin in 1982 claimed to be.
Netanyahu also shaped the policy embraced by the short-lived “government of change” led by Naftali Bennett and Yair Lapid: a multidimensional effort to crush the Palestinian national movement in both its wings, in Gaza and the West Bank, at a price that would seem acceptable to the Israeli public.
In the past, Netanyahu marketed himself as a cautious leader who eschewed wars and multiple casualties on Israel’s side. After his victory in the last election, he replaced this caution with the policy of a “fully-right government,” with overt steps taken to annex the West Bank, to carry out ethnic cleansing in parts of the Oslo-defined Area C, including the Hebron Hills and the Jordan Valley.
This also included a massive expansion of settlements and bolstering of the Jewish presence on Temple Mount, near the Al-Aqsa Mosque, as well as boasts of an impending peace deal with the Saudis in which the Palestinians would get nothing, with open talk of a “second Nakba” in his governing coalition. As expected, signs of an outbreak of hostilities began in the West Bank, where Palestinians started feeling the heavier hand of the Israeli occupier. Hamas exploited the opportunity in order to launch its surprise attack on Saturday.
Above all, the danger looming over Israel in recent years has been fully realized. A prime minister indicted in three corruption cases cannot look after state affairs, as national interests will necessarily be subordinate to extricating him from a possible conviction and jail time.
This was the reason for establishing this horrific coalition and the judicial coup advanced by Netanyahu, and for the enfeeblement of top army and intelligence officers, who were perceived as political opponents. The price was paid by the victims of the invasion in the Western Negev.
The above article is Haaretz’s lead editorial, as published in the Hebrew and English newspapers in Israel.

Kallister · 08/10/2023 15:24

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Kallister · 08/10/2023 15:27

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bollihigh · 08/10/2023 15:27

That Haaretz editorial references the desecration of Al-Aqsa mosque which Hamas have claimed as one of their reasons.
https://twitter.com/realstewpeters/status/1710829348503093696

https://twitter.com/realstewpeters/status/1710829348503093696

Asthebellcurves · 08/10/2023 15:28

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Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 15:34

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Again, I have no idea at all what your point is.

Logic doesn't seem to be your strong point. Nor writing coherently.

DownNative · 08/10/2023 15:34

In the attachment, you'll find the words of Hamas' military commander in relation to their attack on Israel.

It leaves you in no doubt what their aim is. As I explained last night, support for a two State solution is the lowest its been for Palestinians and Israelis.

When does terrorism become war?
mids2019 · 08/10/2023 15:35

@bollihigh

Is that the equivalent of our broadsheets?

I am guessing that there is war cabinet now and democratic government is on hold currently.

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sleepyscientist · 08/10/2023 15:35

@Kallister if you mean Saudi Arabia yeah because they are largely the peace brokers in the Middle East! The government of Saudi hasn't funded ISIS the issue is Saudis going to join ISIS of which we have also had fighters leave the UK. The IRA was also regarded as terrorists.

If this was purely about Islam vs Jews countries like Egypt wouldn't be maintaining a hard land border with the Gaza Strip would they? They would be supporting the people of Gaza but they aren't because of Hamas. This attack is also linked to the USA brokered deal between the Saudis and Israel which aimed to keep the peace.

Realty the whole area should belong to Israel and those living there should be settled in other states that support them if they want to live in a Arab state. That would be fine if it wasn't for Hamas as no Arab country is going to want to welcome terrorists.

People being so attached to a piece of land is the biggest issue of modern times. Look at Brexit (freedom of movement) our attempts to deport refuges (access to the benefit state is another discussion or indeed the EU retaliation on passport controls. The sooner we establish true freedom of movement visa free across the whole world the sooner conflicts like this will end as people won't be so attached to a piece of land. Communities can move and evolve and grow without the land they think they should be on.

duchiebun · 08/10/2023 15:37

@Kallister I think you've had too much internet for today, maybe go for a walk?

Kallister · 08/10/2023 15:38

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Asthebellcurves · 08/10/2023 15:38

The treatment of Jewish children by the Palestinian terrorists is horrific: anyone who continues to stand by the so-called Palestinian cause after witnessing this is complicit.

The two-state solution is not dead in the water, it's just the West is outdated in their understanding of it. Gaza is not included: the PA doesn't want it, Egypt has been urging more severe action against Gaza for over ten years now, and Israel seem to have had enough now.

bollihigh · 08/10/2023 15:39

Very sage words from Haaretz it takes great courage to speak out like they have. They are a left leaning broadsheet in Israel and one of the oldest newspapers dating back to 1918. They have seen how the corrupt fascist Bibi has poured petrol on the flames in despair.

Kallister · 08/10/2023 15:39

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Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 15:42

bollihigh · 08/10/2023 15:27

That Haaretz editorial references the desecration of Al-Aqsa mosque which Hamas have claimed as one of their reasons.
https://twitter.com/realstewpeters/status/1710829348503093696

That video isn't dated nor does it look like Al Aqsa?

That said, those men and boys should be locked up. That behaviour and language is totally unacceptable.

But as far as I'm aware, 'desecration of Al-Aqsa mosque' often just refers to Jews being allowed to go there at all - which given it's the holiest site in the world for Jews (as opposed to the third holiest for Muslims) seems fairly intolerant.

Why shouldn't Jews be allowed to go to their holiest site at festival time?

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