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When does terrorism become war?

975 replies

mids2019 · 07/10/2023 09:19

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

OP posts:
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Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 15:43

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You'd hate to support people that are brutal.

But you'll make an exception for Hamas.

OK.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 15:45

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That would be the US that just gave $6 billion to Iran, Israel's arch enemy.

Great 'guardian'. Hmm

And how precisely are they 'beholden'? If it walks like a conspiracy theory and talks like a conspiracy theory, it's probably a conspiracy theory. Or antisemitic trope as it's otherwise known.

giddymonday · 08/10/2023 15:46

unsurprisingly, Labour supporters at a fringe Labour conference event have today cheered the Hamas terrorists and heralded dead Hamas fighters as martyrs.

Asthebellcurves · 08/10/2023 15:46

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The use of white phosphorus shells as screening or for marking is a legitimate military tactic used by all militaries around the world. Israel has not done this since 2009, as Gaza became too densely populated to ensure that no one inhaled it. They did not use it as an incendiary weapon.

Israel demonstrably care far more about the human rights of Palestinians than your favourite Hamas have ever done.

etmoietmoietmoi · 08/10/2023 15:46

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They oppose Israel as a state, but do not hate Jews.

Hamas want Jews wiped off the face of the earth. All Jews. Globally. It's their raison d'etre. If you know even an iota about Hamas' history, referencing their 2017 charter as proof of an otherwise different agenda is nothing more than mental gymnastics.

etmoietmoietmoi · 08/10/2023 15:48

@giddymonday Would like to say I'm surprised but sadly not. Do you know what the fringe event was?

giddymonday · 08/10/2023 15:49

etmoietmoietmoi · 08/10/2023 15:48

@giddymonday Would like to say I'm surprised but sadly not. Do you know what the fringe event was?

sorry for Daily Fail link:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 15:50

bollihigh · 08/10/2023 15:39

Very sage words from Haaretz it takes great courage to speak out like they have. They are a left leaning broadsheet in Israel and one of the oldest newspapers dating back to 1918. They have seen how the corrupt fascist Bibi has poured petrol on the flames in despair.

Not sure I see why you think 'it takes great courage to speak out like they have'?

As you say, they are a left-wing broadsheet and frankly after yesterday, Netanyahu is going to be facing opposition not just from the left but also from his former supporters for one of the greatest intelligence failures in modern times and taking his eye off the ball.

What they've said seems pretty mainstream for Haaretz?

bollihigh · 08/10/2023 15:51

Wall Street Journal
How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas
By Andrew Higgins
Jan. 24, 2009 12:01 am ET

Moshav Tekuma, Israel
Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor's bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile's trajectory back to an "enormous, stupid mistake" made 30 years ago.
"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.
Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with "Yassins," primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric.
Last Saturday, after 22 days of war, Israel announced a halt to the offensive. The assault was aimed at stopping Hamas rockets from falling on Israel. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert hailed a "determined and successful military operation." More than 1,200 Palestinians had died. Thirteen Israelis were also killed.
Hamas responded the next day by lobbing five rockets towards the Israeli town of Sderot, a few miles down the road from Moshav Tekuma, the farming village where Mr. Cohen lives. Hamas then announced its own cease-fire.
Since then, Hamas leaders have emerged from hiding and reasserted their control over Gaza. Egyptian-mediated talks aimed at a more durable truce are expected to start this weekend. President Barack Obama said this week that lasting calm "requires more than a long cease-fire" and depends on Israel and a future Palestinian state "living side by side in peace and security."
A look at Israel's decades-long dealings with Palestinian radicals including some little-known attempts to cooperate with the Islamists reveals a catalog of unintended and often perilous consequences. Time and again, Israel's efforts to find a pliant Palestinian partner that is both credible with Palestinians and willing to eschew violence, have backfired. Would-be partners have turned into foes or lost the support of their people.
Israel's experience echoes that of the U.S., which, during the Cold War, looked to Islamists as a useful ally against communism. Anti-Soviet forces backed by America after Moscow's 1979 invasion of Afghanistan later mutated into al Qaeda.
Hamas supporters in Gaza City after the cease-fire.
APA /Landov
At stake is the future of what used to be the British Mandate of Palestine, the biblical lands now comprising Israel and the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza. Since 1948, when the state of Israel was established, Israelis and Palestinians have each asserted claims over the same territory.
The Palestinian cause was for decades led by the PLO, which Israel regarded as a terrorist outfit and sought to crush until the 1990s, when the PLO dropped its vow to destroy the Jewish state. The PLO's Palestinian rival, Hamas, led by Islamist militants, refused to recognize Israel and vowed to continue "resistance." Hamas now controls Gaza, a crowded, impoverished sliver of land on the Mediterranean from which Israel pulled out troops and settlers in 2005.
When Israel first encountered Islamists in Gaza in the 1970s and '80s, they seemed focused on studying the Quran, not on confrontation with Israel. The Israeli government officially recognized a precursor to Hamas called Mujama Al-Islamiya, registering the group as a charity. It allowed Mujama members to set up an Islamic university and build mosques, clubs and schools. Crucially, Israel often stood aside when the Islamists and their secular left-wing Palestinian rivals battled, sometimes violently, for influence in both Gaza and the West Bank.
"When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake," says David Hacham, who worked in Gaza in the late 1980s and early '90s as an Arab-affairs expert in the Israeli military. "But at the time nobody thought about the possible results."
Israeli officials who served in Gaza disagree on how much their own actions may have contributed to the rise of Hamas. They blame the group's recent ascent on outsiders, primarily Iran. This view is shared by the Israeli government. "Hamas in Gaza was built by Iran as a foundation for power, and is backed through funding, through training and through the provision of advanced weapons," Mr. Olmert said last Saturday. Hamas has denied receiving military assistance from Iran.
Arieh Spitzen, the former head of the Israeli military's Department of Palestinian Affairs, says that even if Israel had tried to stop the Islamists sooner, he doubts it could have done much to curb political Islam, a movement that was spreading across the Muslim world. He says attempts to stop it are akin to trying to change the internal rhythms of nature: "It is like saying: 'I will kill all the mosquitoes.' But then you get even worse insects that will kill you...You break the balance. You kill Hamas you might get al Qaeda."
When it became clear in the early 1990s that Gaza's Islamists had mutated from a religious group into a fighting force aimed at Israel particularly after they turned to suicide bombings in 1994 Israel cracked down with ferocious force. But each military assault only increased Hamas's appeal to ordinary Palestinians. The group ultimately trounced secular rivals, notably Fatah, in a 2006 election supported by Israel's main ally, the U.S.
Now, one big fear in Israel and elsewhere is that while Hamas has been hammered hard, the war might have boosted the group's popular appeal. Ismail Haniyeh, head of the Hamas administration in Gaza, came out of hiding last Sunday to declare that "God has granted us a great victory."
Most damaged from the war, say many Palestinians, is Fatah, now Israel's principal negotiating partner. "Everyone is praising the resistance and thinks that Fatah is not part of it," says Baker Abu-Baker, a longtime Fatah supporter and author of a book on Hamas.
A Lack of Devotion
Hamas traces its roots back to the Muslim Brotherhood, a group set up in Egypt in 1928. The Brotherhood believed that the woes of the Arab world spring from a lack of Islamic devotion. Its slogan: "Islam is the solution. The Quran is our constitution." Its philosophy today underpins modern, and often militantly intolerant, political Islam from Algeria to Indonesia.
After the 1948 establishment of Israel, the Brotherhood recruited a few followers in Palestinian refugee camps in Gaza and elsewhere, but secular activists came to dominate the Palestinian nationalist movement.
At the time, Gaza was ruled by Egypt. The country's then-president, Gamal Abdel Nasser, was a secular nationalist who brutally repressed the Brotherhood. In 1967, Nasser suffered a crushing defeat when Israel triumphed in the six-day war. Israel took control of Gaza and also the West Bank.
"We were all stunned," says Palestinian writer and Hamas supporter Azzam Tamimi. He was at school at the time in Kuwait and says he became close to a classmate named Khaled Mashaal, now Hamas's Damascus-based political chief. "The Arab defeat provided the Brotherhood with a big opportunity," says Mr. Tamimi.
In Gaza, Israel hunted down members of Fatah and other secular PLO factions, but it dropped harsh restrictions imposed on Islamic activists by the territory's previous Egyptian rulers. Fatah, set up in 1964, was the backbone of the PLO, which was responsible for hijackings, bombings and other violence against Israel. Arab states in 1974 declared the PLO the "sole legitimate representative" of the Palestinian people world-wide.
A poster of the late Sheikh Yassin hangs near a building destroyed by the Israeli assault on Gaza.
Heidi Levine/Sipa Press for The Wall Street Journal
The Muslim Brotherhood, led in Gaza by Sheikh Yassin, was free to spread its message openly. In addition to launching various charity projects, Sheikh Yassin collected money to reprint the writings of Sayyid Qutb, an Egyptian member of the Brotherhood who, before his execution by President Nasser, advocated global jihad. He is now seen as one of the founding ideologues of militant political Islam.
Mr. Cohen, who worked at the time for the Israeli government's religious affairs department in Gaza, says he began to hear disturbing reports in the mid-1970s about Sheikh Yassin from traditional Islamic clerics. He says they warned that the sheikh had no formal Islamic training and was ultimately more interested in politics than faith. "They said, 'Keep away from Yassin. He is a big danger,'" recalls Mr. Cohen.
Instead, Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy. The university was one of the first targets hit by Israeli warplanes in the recent war.
Brig. General Yosef Kastel, Gaza's Israeli governor at the time, is too ill to comment, says his wife. But Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who took over as governor in Gaza in late 1979, says he had no illusions about Sheikh Yassin's long-term intentions or the perils of political Islam. As Israel's former military attache in Iran, he'd watched Islamic fervor topple the Shah. However, in Gaza, says Mr. Segev, "our main enemy was Fatah," and the cleric "was still 100% peaceful" towards Israel. Former officials say Israel was also at the time wary of being viewed as an enemy of Islam.
Mr. Segev says he had regular contact with Sheikh Yassin, in part to keep an eye on him. He visited his mosque and met the cleric around a dozen times. It was illegal at the time for Israelis to meet anyone from the PLO. Mr. Segev later arranged for the cleric to be taken to Israel for hospital treatment. "We had no problems with him," he says.
In fact, the cleric and Israel had a shared enemy: secular Palestinian activists. After a failed attempt in Gaza to oust secularists from leadership of the Palestinian Red Crescent, the Muslim version of the Red Cross, Mujama staged a violent demonstration, storming the Red Crescent building. Islamists also attacked shops selling liquor and cinemas. The Israeli military mostly stood on the sidelines.
Mr. Segev says the army didn't want to get involved in Palestinian quarrels but did send soldiers to prevent Islamists from burning down the house of the Red Crescent's secular chief, a socialist who supported the PLO.
'An Alternative to the PLO'
Clashes between Islamists and secular nationalists spread to the West Bank and escalated during the early 1980s, convulsing college campuses, particularly Birzeit University, a center of political activism.
As the fighting between rival student factions at Birzeit grew more violent, Brig. Gen. Shalom Harari, then a military intelligence officer in Gaza, says he received a call from Israeli soldiers manning a checkpoint on the road out of Gaza. They had stopped a bus carrying Islamic activists who wanted to join the battle against Fatah at Birzeit. "I said: 'If they want to burn each other let them go,'" recalls Mr. Harari.
A leader of Birzeit's Islamist faction at the time was Mahmoud Musleh, now a pro-Hamas member of a Palestinian legislature elected in 2006. He recalls how usually aggressive Israeli security forces stood back and let conflagration develop. He denies any collusion between his own camp and the Israelis, but says "they hoped we would become an alternative to the PLO."
A year later, in 1984, the Israeli military received a tip-off from Fatah supporters that Sheikh Yassin's Gaza Islamists were collecting arms, according to Israeli officials in Gaza at the time. Israeli troops raided a mosque and found a cache of weapons. Sheikh Yassin was jailed. He told Israeli interrogators the weapons were for use against rival Palestinians, not Israel, according to Mr. Hacham, the military affairs expert who says he spoke frequently with jailed Islamists. The cleric was released after a year and continued to expand Mujama's reach across Gaza.
Around the time of Sheikh Yassin's arrest, Mr. Cohen, the religious affairs official, sent a report to senior Israeli military and civilian officials in Gaza. Describing the cleric as a "diabolical" figure, he warned that Israel's policy towards the Islamists was allowing Mujama to develop into a dangerous force.
"I believe that by continuing to turn away our eyes, our lenient approach to Mujama will in the future harm us. I therefore suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face," Mr. Cohen wrote.
Mr. Harari, the military intelligence officer, says this and other warnings were ignored. But, he says, the reason for this was neglect, not a desire to fortify the Islamists: "Israel never financed Hamas. Israel never armed Hamas."
Roni Shaked, a former officer of Shin Bet, Israel's internal security service, and author of a book on Hamas, says Sheikh Yassin and his followers had a long-term perspective whose dangers were not understood at the time. "They worked slowly, slowly, step by step according to the Muslim Brotherhood plan."
Declaring Jihad
In 1987, several Palestinians were killed in a traffic accident involving an Israeli driver, triggering a wave of protests that became known as the first Intifada, Mr. Yassin and six other Mujama Islamists launched Hamas, or the Islamic Resistance Movement. Hamas's charter, released a year later, is studded with anti-Semitism and declares "jihad its path and death for the cause of Allah its most sublime belief."
Israeli officials, still focused on Fatah and initially unaware of the Hamas charter, continued to maintain contacts with the Gaza Islamists. Mr. Hacham, the military Arab affairs expert, remembers taking one of Hamas's founders, Mahmoud Zahar, to meet Israel's then defense minister, Yitzhak Rabin, as part of regular consultations between Israeli officials and Palestinians not linked to the PLO. Mr. Zahar, the only Hamas founder known to be alive today, is now the group's senior political leader in Gaza.
In 1989, Hamas carried out its first attack on Israel, abducting and killing two soldiers. Israel arrested Sheikh Yassin and sentenced him to life. It later rounded up more than 400 suspected Hamas activists, including Mr. Zahar, and deported them to southern Lebanon. There, they hooked up with Hezbollah, the Iran-backed A-Team of anti-Israeli militancy.
Many of the deportees later returned to Gaza. Hamas built up its arsenal and escalated its attacks, while all along maintaining the social network that underpinned its support in Gaza.
Meanwhile, its enemy, the PLO, dropped its commitment to Israel's destruction and started negotiating a two-state settlement. Hamas accused it of treachery. This accusation found increasing resonance as Israel kept developing settlements on occupied Palestinian land, particularly the West Bank. Though the West Bank had passed to the nominal control of a new Palestinian Authority, it was still dotted with Israeli military checkpoints and a growing number of Israeli settlers.
Unable to uproot a now entrenched Islamist network that had suddenly replaced the PLO as its main foe, Israel tried to decapitate it. It started targeting Hamas leaders. This, too, made no dent in Hamas's support, and sometimes even helped the group. In 1997, for example, Israel's Mossad spy agency tried to poison Hamas's exiled political leader Mr. Mashaal, who was then living in Jordan.
The agents got caught and, to get them out of a Jordanian jail, Israel agreed to release Sheikh Yassin. The cleric set off on a tour of the Islamic world to raise support and money. He returned to Gaza to a hero's welcome.
Efraim Halevy, a veteran Mossad officer who negotiated the deal that released Sheikh Yassin, says the cleric's freedom was hard to swallow, but Israel had no choice. After the fiasco in Jordan, Mr. Halevy was named director of Mossad, a position he held until 2002. Two years later, Sheikh Yassin was killed by an Israeli air strike.
Mr. Halevy has in recent years urged Israel to negotiate with Hamas. He says that "Hamas can be crushed," but he believes that "the price of crushing Hamas is a price that Israel would prefer not to pay." When Israel's authoritarian secular neighbor, Syria, launched a campaign to wipe out Muslim Brotherhood militants in the early 1980s it killed more than 20,000 people, many of them civilians.
In its recent war in Gaza, Israel didn't set the destruction of Hamas as its goal. It limited its stated objectives to halting the Islamists' rocket fire and battering their overall military capacity. At the start of the Israeli operation in December, Defense Minister Ehud Barak told parliament that the goal was "to deal Hamas a severe blow, a blow that will cause it to stop its hostile actions from Gaza at Israeli citizens and soldiers."
Walking back to his house from the rubble of his neighbor's home, Mr. Cohen, the former religious affairs official in Gaza, curses Hamas and also what he sees as missteps that allowed Islamists to put down deep roots in Gaza.
He recalls a 1970s meeting with a traditional Islamic cleric who wanted Israel to stop cooperating with the Muslim Brotherhood followers of Sheikh Yassin: "He told me: 'You are going to have big regrets in 20 or 30 years.' He was right."

pinkmont · 08/10/2023 15:52

It's horrific, Iranian sponsored terrorism. Hamas have just opened the doors for Gaza to be wiped off the map by the Israeli's. Those poor innocent Israelis and Palestinians.

Kallister · 08/10/2023 15:54

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Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 15:55

giddymonday · 08/10/2023 15:46

unsurprisingly, Labour supporters at a fringe Labour conference event have today cheered the Hamas terrorists and heralded dead Hamas fighters as martyrs.

Grotesque.

The event should have been cancelled, after yesterday's events.

The Corbyn wing is still far too powerful in the party.

How are British Jews supposed to feel safe in Labour if these kind of people are allowed to use a party event to support a proscribed terrorist organisation that just massacred hundreds of Jews?

So much for zero tolerance for antisemitism in Labour.

I hope the police act, as they are required to do.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 15:55

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Please stop typing nonsense!

Kallister · 08/10/2023 15:56

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Asthebellcurves · 08/10/2023 15:58

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Using white phosphorus as a weapon is a big deal, that's a war crime. Using it to screen and mark targets is not a big deal, that's the intended use. For example, if I have a pencil and write with it - totally fine. If I take my pencil and stab you with it - not fine. Hope that helps.

MrTiddlesTheCat · 08/10/2023 15:59

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 15:55

Grotesque.

The event should have been cancelled, after yesterday's events.

The Corbyn wing is still far too powerful in the party.

How are British Jews supposed to feel safe in Labour if these kind of people are allowed to use a party event to support a proscribed terrorist organisation that just massacred hundreds of Jews?

So much for zero tolerance for antisemitism in Labour.

I hope the police act, as they are required to do.

It was a nutjob event taking place in Liverpool at a different location. It had nothing at all to do with the Labour Party Conference.

BeggyMitchell · 08/10/2023 16:01

Kallister. I can't believe you said 'have a Star' in the context of this discussion, if that was deliberate I am truly disgusted.

StowOnTheWold · 08/10/2023 16:03

People being so attached to a piece of land is the biggest issue of modern times. Look at Brexit (freedom of movement) our attempts to deport refuges (access to the benefit state is another discussion or indeed the EU retaliation on passport controls. The sooner we establish true freedom of movement visa free across the whole world the sooner conflicts like this will end as people won't be so attached to a piece of land. Communities can move and evolve and grow without the land they think they should be on.

Great idea, but wishful thinking and would never happen.

In fact it has never happened. Look at NA tribes. Look at feudal Britain. The notion of community - and religion - would have to go by the wayside for total free movement to be accepted. Being tied to land is what has driven people.

All wars, even religious wars, always come back to land. If land was infinite no tribe would give too hoots what another tribe worshipped, what it consumed or what it built. Land and the fear of losing land is behind all wars.

DownNative · 08/10/2023 16:05

Livinginanotherworld · 07/10/2023 15:24

One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. It totally depends on where you live and your nationality.
Israel have been occupying Palestine for many many years, they won’t rest until Palestine has been obliterated from the map. If civilians are being killed and injured ( which they are) they are both terrorists. You will obviously read the western media side of all this who are of course, totally pro-Israeli.

The clichéd statement "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" is usually used by sneaking regarders of terrorism.

In any case, it doesn't depend on where you live or nationality.

Consider the Provisional Sinn Féin, Provisional IRA, Provisional Army Council and Provisional Republican Movement. PSF censored on broadcast TV in the Republic of Ireland first and then the UK followed.

PIRA was and remains an illegal organisation on both sides of the border as well. During the Troubles, they never came close to having majority support in Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. The community PIRA claimed to be defending believed in 1967 and 1998 that terrorist violence to end partition is wrong. Instead of voting for PSF, they voted SDLP from 1970-2001 circa a whopping 70%.

So, the statement "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" falls down flat.

Civilians being killed doesn't automatically make a State a terrorist as well. The very nature of terrorist groups in operating from civilian areas, infrastructure and using civilians including children in attacks means civilian deaths by any State is going to be unavoidable.

See the attachments from NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence (NATO StratCom COE).

It probably won't surprise anyone here that Hamas and PSF/PIRA are also linked together along with other groups in an international terrorist network. See a PIRA mural demonstrating so. PIRA and Hamas trained in Libya under Colonel Gaddafi too. Mandela's ANC/MK is another terrorist link.

Again, the "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" cliché falls flat.

When does terrorism become war?
When does terrorism become war?
Jackienory · 08/10/2023 16:09

mids2019 · 07/10/2023 13:37

The response from Western leaders is to actively support Israel's right to self defence while middle eastern countries are wishing restraint from both sides? Which view is correct?

You don't think Israel has a right to defend itself ?.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 16:10

MrTiddlesTheCat · 08/10/2023 15:59

It was a nutjob event taking place in Liverpool at a different location. It had nothing at all to do with the Labour Party Conference.

Thank you, glad to hear that.

My point about the police needing to get involved still stands though. Loons.

DownNative · 08/10/2023 16:22

Forgot to attach the PIRA mural demonstrating their connection with Hamas.

Under International Humanitarian Law, neither PIRA or Hamas were entitled to prisoner-of-war status as they committed perfidy.

Terrorist groups do not enjoy the POW status that personnel in all legitimate State armed forces enjoy, including US Army, British Army, Israeli Defence Force, etc.

When does terrorism become war?
SchruteShunned · 08/10/2023 16:24

@Ibizafun thank you, this valid comment has been lost in the thread but so very true.

mids2019 · 08/10/2023 16:34

@Jackienory .

I could have possibly phrased that better.

Israel absolutely has a right to defend itself but I suppose the question is how far that defence will take and what remit the IFD has in terms of a ground inclusion into Gaza.

I guess there are some governments that wish Israel to remove any remaining militants and to repair the border fence while others such as the US are obviously supporting Israel in what I presume is going to be significant and long lasting action in Gaza.

My view objectively is that Israelis cannot exercise restraint; the people of Israel will demand retaliatory action and therefore the calls for restraint are unrealistic.

I think what will be interesting is the remit given to the IFD when it comes to the forthcoming war. Can a ground invasion really remove Hamas and what ultimately will be the Israeli war aims?

also of interest will the UN meeting where there will be a range of opinion about how the world should react. I am guessing we will have the more hawkish US lined up against some of the gulf states which don't want escalation of instability.

OP posts:
BlurredEdges · 08/10/2023 16:50

@Kallister
I do not condone the rape or murder of innocents, but

yeah, see, stop there.