When does terrorism become war?

[mids2019]

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

This makes sense. But what's the alternative?

Israel can't afford to - and won't be in the mood to - do nothing or take only symbolic revenge.

There is no way that Israel can't react proportionally - which means at the correct scale (too small is also not proportional) to an attack that is the equivalent of multiple 911s or multiple Pearl Harbours in terms of scale.

Or they will be viewed as weak and open themselves up to further attacks.

Interestingly just as Hamas and Gaza hosts terrorists who use it a a base to launch terrorist attacks against Israel it is also used as a base to launch terrorist attacks against Egypt in Northern Sinai.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_insurgency

@bollihigh

This is the equivalent of 9/11 in the US. I think the conversations between the Israeli leadership and Biden would have touched on this and it looks like the US are going to support all possible military avenues available.

I think your allusion to being bombed back to the stone age won't be too far from the truth. The Israelis have cut utilities to the strip and I really believe that in the forthcoming invasion there will be blurring between the civilian and the military.

Israel cannot simply accept the status quo any more and I am afraid the Middle East is facing a configuration not seen in my lifetime.

"the further victimisation and abuse of Palestinians"???

Oh do fuck off, what a thing to say when the death toll for Hamas' brutal terrorist attack yesterday on Israel is 600 and rising, the vast majority being Israeli civilians - teens, young people out at a music festival, families with young children, old people.

Plus dozens of hostages, rapes, desecration of corpses, torture etc.

Can't you even keep your claims that Palestinians are the real victims here even for one day??! 😡

A week ago that could have been a solution, in a fantasy land anyway.

Now? No way.

I think your allusion to being bombed back to the stone age won't be too far from the truth. The Israelis have cut utilities to the strip and I really believe that in the forthcoming invasion there will be blurring between the civilian and the military.

On the radio Netanyahu has warned people in Gaza to leave so yes I think it will be bad

It is pretty hopeless isn't it Hamas aren't an organisation that you can have a meaningful dialogue with I just hope that Israel / Iran don't get into a protracted shooting war - that would undoubtedly mean 10s of thousands of Israelis dying, oil fields ablaze and the oil price going to the moon. If China was to use the chaos as an excuse to go into Taiwan then WW3 would have begun. I know the UN is a hopeless organisation but there should be some special meeting convened to try and calm down the situation globally. We need cool heads and calm voices now more than ever.

There is no way that Israel can't react proportionally - which means at the correct scale (too small is also not proportional) to an attack that is the equivalent of multiple 911s or multiple Pearl Harbours in terms of scale.

Yep, I was thinking of the Pearl Harbour retaliation. It's definitely a dangerous time as other countries will likely be pulled i.

Comparing the Suffragettes with terrorists who have murdered, raped and kidnapped hundreds of people is a new low for this thread.

Al Jazeera is good for up to date news.

"does this suppress legitimate support of Palestinians? If someone questions proportionality of Israeli actions in the next few weeks are we automatically labelling this as antisemitic support for a terrorist organisation given Israel has the right to self defense?"

No. Cheering mass murder or expressing support for a proscribed terrorist organisation is clearly not the same as discussing calmly proportionality of Israeli actions.

And let's not bring the 'antisemitism' word into this. It's illegal not because it's antisemitic but because it's supporting a proscribed terrorist organisation, which is illegal. You really don't need to bring the Jews into the whole discussion (likely to stir up antisemitism).

"I just think this will be bloody in the extreme and could gain sympathy from the Arab world in general."

Yes and yes.

If you like it heavily biased, yes...

@Truthisbetterthanlies I was being facetious & it was more directed at all the apologists. I certainly don't.

Attacking the IDF could be considered violent resistance. Murdering civilians is never that, so I'm quite happy to be missing whatever point you're trying to make.

It's kinda like the Suffragettes being pinned as terrorists when they did a little arson and bombing and disruption. Don't pay any heed to why they did those things (or that it worked)

I thought MNs was meant to be for educated people?

Well said.

It's clear that there are some people on this thread who don't see Jews as human, so genuinely do not understand how horrifically their posts come across to normal people.

They're all biased I'll never forget Tony Benn on the BBC years ago insisting on speaking up for the Gaza Appeal 14 years ago.

I'm certainly not going to condone people cheering death.

Your points about resistance might have more credence if Hamas weren't a terrorist organisation with the stated aim of completely destroying another people. It is not the same as the Suffragettes or people from colonised nations seeking independence.