When does terrorism become war?

[mids2019]

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

I studied the conflict in detail while at university - so while I won't ever claim to know everything (especially more recent developments), I do understand the historical context quite well.

I do hope that those who are so silent whilst watching the sickening atrocities playing out in Israel today will be equally silent when Israel mounts its inevitable response to this act of unprovoked war. This will not end well for the Palestinian people. It never does. They never learn. And this latest chapter proves that they do not, and have never, craved peace.

To be fair, you didn't say anything about having sympathy for individual Israelis. But I'm glad you have, at least, some humanity remaining, for the people you think should not be allowed to have a country. I'm not sure how you think your desired ethnic cleansing is going to happen without atrocities though.

I feel the media has a real responsibility for balanced reporting over the coming weeks as it surely will be the case that the Israeli military offensive will be long and intense? The question is what are the end goals?

Will the Israeli government look to occupy Gaza effectively to allow a.root and branch dismantling of the entire Hamas military and political infrastructure? How can this be done without large scale civilian casualties?

How will the Arab world and Muslims more generally react over the coming weeks when inevitably they will see Palestinians suffering? Could Israeli action forment terrorism elsewhere?

On a side note with a diverse society in the UK how should our government respond in terms of aiding with Israel. I notice that none of our public buildings as of yet have had Israeli colours shine on them and I wonder if this is quite deliberate in that this war may have local sensitivities.

I have also noticed my FB stream is very quiet on this event and I think (as has been demonstrated here ) there may be a lot of local sensitivity. Someone suggested a Ukraine like thread which may be a good idea as there are quite a few thoughtful analyses coming out now in the press but is that possible where people or likely to take a 'side'? There is universal condemnation of Russia on the Ukraine thread but will a thread on Gaza be more antagonsitic?

@JuvenileEmu how on earth do you conclude that I don't think Israel should exist? That's ridiculous.

@mids2019 The nature of Israel’s response will need to balance out the ground achieved under the Abraham Accords and current talks with Saudi Arabia. As the posters who know the situation on the ground have pointed out, it will be a tight revenge to target Hamas only for this reason. It goes without saying there will be more deaths of innocent people.

I have also noticed the general lack of information being reported in the mainstream British press. I’m not sure why but it feels something is up. Even Reuters have basic news reports. I hope the most influential source of news isn’t going to a source controlled by Elon Musk.

The problem with threads on the subject of the Israel / Palestine one or two states issue is the eventual disappearance of much of them through deleted posts. As another poster reported, this is as far more complicated issue than Ukraine/Russia or NI sectarianism and one that is not well understood by a high majority of people.

@StowOnTheWold

I agree that the Israel/Palestine question is long an complicated; in fact the formation of the modern state of Israel in complex so I am reading with interests some of the informed posts on this thread.

I think this is actually a really sensitive issue in the UK and the government needs to strike a balance between entirely rightly condemning terrorism yet giving more guarded responses to the overall political picture.

One of the problems with reporting is that we obviously have Jews and Muslims in this country and I know at least some Muslims have deep sympathy with the Palestinian cause so I don't know to what extent it is diplomatic for the government to be all in on the Israeli cause.

I think there has been a lack of 'I am standing with Israel' type posts on Facebook as a lot of people do realise the sensitivities of this conflict and do not wish to offend a particular religion.

is the middle easy question so complex that may be people are saying away from opinion until they are more informed?

@StowOnTheWold

also I think it is important to have reporters (brave ones) to be embedded in Gaza. Every time a building is destroyed by bombs (as is currently happening) it is important that civilian death reporting is as true and balanced as possible. One thing that has always perturbed me is that Palestinians become some sort of amorphous mass in the press and their individual sufferings are not highlighted. For instance Israel is cutting off fuel supplies to the Gaza Strip so we need to be wary about distinguishing between legitimate military aims in response to terrorism and simply revenge where a civilian death toll is extracted simply put of an eye for an eye philosophy.

it is right that we highlight the victims of terrorism in Israel but it is also right that we show civilian casualties including children in Gaza in the interests of a balance. The question is so we have this balanced reporting? (I tend to go the BBC for this).

I think what you say is right. I’m also reading reports the US administration had been warning of an uptick in Hamas activity over the last three months. I can imagine until Israel’s administration has got control of the situation, reporting from inside Israel will be restricted.

I no longer support Palestine

@StowOnTheWold

it really is an embarrassing intelligence failure isn't it? A few years have got to roll in the security services you would think.

As a workaday Christian background white middle class English woman I always felt like a real outlier for having sympathies that lay more with Israel than Palestine.

My attitude is don't the Jewish people deserve a country of their own and if not Israel then where?

74,370 people moved to Israel last year, a record number but similar to numbers year on year. That is actively making a choice to live complicity with the suffering of others for their own benefit.

You're aware that many moved because of feeling under threat? eg there's been a rise in many leaving France

My attitude is don't the Jewish people deserve a country of their own and if not Israel then where?

I've also wanted to know the answer to this?

@Finlesswonder

I wonder how Christian religious authorities will view this? I will presume that there will be general calls for prayer for the victims of terrorism and war but will Justin Welby, the Pope etc. explicitly mention terrorism and an understanding for the Israeli right to self defence. There is so much mention of Israel in the Bible that my maybe naive assumptions are that there is alignment between Christianity and the existence of Israel as a support for much of the spiritual meaning of the text.

religion I think is one of the reasons why my Facebook page is quiet as I think a lot of people are very much aware of the sensitivities around this.

I've just seen young men senselessly attack and rape and murder young girls.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the cause?

Another concern is that after the Cornyn debacle political leaders on either side of the spectrum will be acutely aware of the need to not come across as any where near anti Semitic so there public utterances will be very much on the side of Israel. This will possibly have consequences in terms of support (or lack of) when it comes to a possible humanitarian disaster in Gaza as it becomes a focus of war. If we have groups such as UNICEF asking for charitable aid for Palestinians are governments (and people) going to be symapthetic?

Yes I wonder what the response will be but just to be clear when I said "workaday Christian background" I meant like most (?) people in this country I was christened but I wouldnt call myself religiously Christian. Just meant that the mainstream sympathies seem to lie with Palestine in this country

I do have sympathy for the ordinary Palestinian people and the children born into this.

But there is no excuse for what is happening now. It is terrorism and kidnapping and murdering women, children and the elderly is nothing but cowardly and shows how weak these terrorists really are.

And yes I have been to Israel and the West Bank, and studied the history of this conflict at university. There is so much to it, it's really not as simple as saying 'land was stolen'. People today seem to blindly follow celebrities' opinions who haven't got a clue and just say what they need to say for TikTok likes.

Because many people on this country are uneducated and have not studied the history of it (and I don't just mean the last 75 years). Their knowledge stretches as far as whatever the latest celeb is saying on Instagram.

It's just horrendous.

Jews had their own country before they were persecuted and expelled. Jews were on so called Palestinian long before Islam was created. They have only returned home.

But there is no excuse for what is happening now. It is terrorism and kidnapping and murdering women, children and the elderly is nothing but cowardly and shows how weak these terrorists really are.

I'm just gobsmacked that so much of the response to the above is "eventually the oppressed will bite back", "well in 1948", etc etc.

As I said on this thread or another one Britain is fucked then when all those we oppressed bite back as I assume we all just have to accept it's time to pay our dues.

Not so fast!

Quality of intelligence always varies and it doesn't mean Israel had intelligence for this particular Hamas attack.

This was an unusual surprise attack by Hamas. Once a terrorist group has done this once, they tend to find it really difficult to attempt again in future.

For that reason, Islamic Jihadists have never managed to successfully reattempt 9/11 anywhere in the West.