When does terrorism become war?

[mids2019]

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

Also maybe I'm coming at this from a weird angle as we moved country every 3 years when I was growing up but...

Why wouldn't the Palestinians just move on? Like "this is our land", okay, but given the violence and bloodshed and many other places available where your religion and culture are the clear majority, why wouldn't you just say "okay this hurts but I it's just not worth it, let's go". Why don't they just say to themselves we will live in Jordan now.

Why haven't neighbouring countries come up with some kind of creative solution to helping Palestinians absorb into their countries while feeling a sense of pride in their Palestinian identities?

I'm surprised there isn't more wider regional involvement in trying to create peace here. Why are the US and UK getting involved in speaking out etc. Why doesn't the middle east as a whole take on responsibility for thinking innovatively to sort this out?

Or are they in some way benefiting from having Palestine and Israel in this situation?

You can always spot the terrorist. He's the one with the biggest bomb.

Brendan Behan.

Quality of intelligence: A comparative is the IRA bombing of the Grand Hotel in Brighton in 1984. The IRA narrowly missed assassinating Margaret Thatcher, following which they released a statement saying "Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once. You will have to be lucky always."

@StowOnTheWold MI5 missed a chance to prevent the Manchester Arena bombing.

And others. Each of these lone wolfs or terrorist organisations only have to be lucky once.

Day in day out given the chance there is always someone who would like to plant a bomb in London, Stockholm, Paris or Madrid. It shows what European countries' security services are up against.

The potential victims cannot be lucky every time.

yes, impossible to stop all of them.

PIRA were never able to attempt that again, especially since they found themselves more and more infiltrated after 1984.

To the point where PIRAs top members increasingly admit the infiltration left them increasingly unable to carry out what they called "spectaculars". Loughgall 1987 was the beginning of the end for PIRA as their most disciplined unit was wiped out by the SAS.

Top PIRA members such as John Crawley admit PIRAs plan to blow up south east England electricity supplies was foiled by the intelligence services. He also believes PIRA leadership touted too.

Intelligence can never be said to be infallible or anything like that. But the only way to defeat terrorist ideology is to infiltrate them and get intelligence in order to stop them.

PIRAs cell structure also came to be a weakness in time as it meant their average age was mid 30s to 40. In their insurgent phrase, it was mid 20s but PIRA leadership acknowledged their members were ill disciplined against infiltration so switched to cells. That prolonged the conflict.

People in general badly misunderstand the nature of intelligence as well as military operations against terrorist groups.

That's fascinating @DownNative
Have you thought about writing a book on this subject? Maybe you already have. I have a friend who spent 20 years in NI in a role connected with conflict there (not armed forces) and they have always said there are so many stories to be tell, so many insights from different people but only a fraction of it gets told.

I think if they move away, they'd be refugees. They wouldn't be able to visit their home country ever again, visit their parents or grandparents graves or just see places that are important to their family.

I don't know enough about the Palestinians as a ethnic group but I believe their plight would be similar to that of the Kurdish people in Turkey or the Armenian people who simply got eradicated from the face of the earth.
So simply moving to a neighbouring county isn't easy if you are unsure about the future of your own culture and traditions.

@Finlesswonder

"Why wouldn't the Palestinians just move on? Like "this is our land", okay, but given the violence and bloodshed and many other places available where your religion and culture are the clear majority, why wouldn't you just say "okay this hurts but I it's just not worth it, let's go". Why don't they just say to themselves we will live in Jordan now."

+++

Well that is kind of what happened but it led to the Jordanian Civil War. After the Six Day War of 1967 Jordan took in large numbers of Palestinians.
However these Palestinians then used their host nation of Jordan to launch attacks on Israel. This then led to attacks by Israel on those bases in Jordan leading to Jordan trying to restrain the actions of the Palestinians.

This then led to the Jordanian Civil War in which the Palestinians tried to overthrow and take control of Jordan- which is a lovely way to repay your hosts after they gave you refuge.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September

After being militarily defeated by Jordan they were then expelled to Lebanon where again after using Lebanon as a base to attack Israel, Lebanon objected leading to the Lebanese Civil War and turning one of the most developed Middle Eastern countries into rubble. Again another lovely way to repay your hosts after they gave you refuge.

After being expelled from Lebanon the remnants of the Palestinian political leadership were expelled to Libya where Gadaffi kept them as useful thugs but under close scrutiny and control.

The point after the way they have treated their previous hosts I don't think any other country would be dumb enough to offer them sanctuary again and especially Jordan.

What the actual fuck? Go look at yourself in a mirror and see a face of someone who should be deeply ashamed of themselves? Why don't Palestinians just pander to Israel and accept to be annihilated?

Why don't Ukrainians just move to Europe and let Russia get Ukraine, right? And then when Russia want Poland... Why don't Polish people...

The point after the way they have treated their previous hosts I don't think any other country would be dumb enough to offer them sanctuary again and especially Jordan.

Perhaps we should offer them sanctuary?

@Finlesswonder at least half, possibly more of the Palestinian population live outside of Israel, Gaza and West Bank.

Moving is clearly not a solution. IIRC, the other Arab nations don't want this as it creates problems for them too.

Why don't Ukrainians just move to Europe and let Russia get Ukraine, right?

But Russia believes Ukraine is Russia

Moving is clearly not a solution. IIRC, the other Arab nations don't want this as it creates problems for them too.

They don't

@Asthebellcurves
So say Israel confirm the location of a weapons factory in Gaza. First, they will drop leaflets warning nearby residents of raids/strikes, hack the radio to spread the evacuation message, even call people's mobile numbers and make sure they're able to get out and don't need additional assistance e.g. for elderly or disabled family members. They do a roof knock, effectively a non-damaging strike that makes a loud noise, for any last minute hangers on - and only then strike the building.

That is really interesting. Watching news footage from different sources this morning I believe we saw this 'roof knock' in operation. Earlier in the day, an Al-Jazeera news reporter is stood on a roof top with the Al-Watan office blocks framed to the right of the screen (over her left shoulder). These housed Hamas's HQ, The APN and a few residents. There are some large explosions on the roof which appear to cause no damage or fire and more designed for shock and noise.

Sometime later - evidenced by cloud patterns having shifted - the air strike demolishing most of the tower took place. This seems to corroborate what you said in your post last night.

It will be interesting to see what the APN say, if they are able to comment on it.

And Israel believes that Palestinian land is theirs? What is your point?

I'm writing one for my future descendants so they don't misunderstand us as my family is actually Catholic yet neither Republican or Nationalist.

I can recommend some books later of you like?

Perhaps they already have a land and they should keep it?

And Israel believes that Palestinian land is theirs? What is your point?

I thought the West also believed that land was Israel or did Israel act independently in forming Israel @SurpriseItsMeHorseyNeighNeigh?

Perhaps they already have a land and they should keep it?

Not really the British way!

Yes please. Please PM me when ready.

Catholic yet neither Republican or Nationalist.

You're going to confuse people there @DownNative as so many think it's about religion! 😆

I am obviously talking Israel current expansionism. The attacks of Palestinians by settlers. All that jazz.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/#:~:text=Since%20the%20occupation%20first%20began,them%20of%20their%20basic%20rights.

Not, the land that belongs to Israel after WW2. Don't play fake outrage.

I am obviously talking Israel current expansionism.

And I obviously wasn't 🤷🏻‍♀️