What to do about FIL’s driving?

[AdviceNeededPlease11]

PIL have been staying with us for the last week. Over the last couple of years FIL (75) has been having these absences for a couple of minutes at a time where he licks his lips and is entirely unresponsive. He’ll then come back to himself and completely deny it happened and MIL will agree with him as she doesn’t want to push it. Both DH and I have been asking him to get a GP’s appointment since his first episode but he insists he’s fit as a fiddle (he runs 10k a day so is physically fit) and doesn’t need to.

On Tuesday FIL had an episode while o was present and it was really scary. He was completely unresponsive for 20 minutes, just started rocking in his chair. It took over an hour before he could even tell us where he was or what his name is. I kept trying to call an ambulance but MiL was getting hysterical- sobbing, insisting he was just tired, telling me I was being ridiculous and that I had no medical training (she was a healthcare assistant) so she knows he’s fine.

DH didn’t see it and MIL played the whole thing down to him, making out he’d just nodded off while I was there. I think DH believes me but doesn’t want to upset his parents by confronting them and also doesn’t want to admit there’s something clearly wrong with his dad.

The problem is that one Sunday they’re due to drive home - a 9 hour drive and MIL doesn’t drive. DH has offered to drive them but they’ve told him not to be silly, that they’re completely fine and that just because FIL was tired one day it doesn’t mean he can’t drive.

I don’t know what to do. I’ve had a look at reporting an unfit driver via the DVLA but it looks like they need to be driving with a diagnosed condition in order for them to act.

Whatever I do it will cause an enormous shit storm for me but I cannot in good conscience let this man drive for 9 hours when he’s clearly regularly having medical episodes that leave him unable to move, speak or know where he is.

TLDR FIL has been having some kind of absence seizures but won’t see a doctor and is due to drive for 9 hours straight in a few days. He and MIL refusing to admit there’s an issue.

Any suggestions?

OP, he is very likely having TIAs or mini strokes. It can be very serious and can indicate a build up to a stroke. You are right to think he should not be driving and as hard as it is, you DH has to come out of denial and tackle it with his parents, starting with a GP's visit.

What a terrible situation.

9 hours of driving is more than I would want to do in a day . It’s loads!

i think you should do what you can op but at the end of the day if he drives it Is NOT your fault if something happens it’s totally on him.

The only major accident I've been involved in involved an older driver. It ended up with her car actually going up on it's end and then falling on top of ours. If my husband hadn't driven into a hedge, it would have seriously injured or killed him and my baby who was on that side. The paramedics said we were really lucky he had reacted so quickly. Car was written off- crushed and smashed where he had mounted the kerb to avoid the falling car.

When her family arrived, her son said that they'd been trying to get her licence taken off her for months but it was really difficult- but this accident would enable them. At the time, I was very shocked and shouted at them that they should have taken the keys off her. To be fair, I don't think either of us were being unreasonable but the shock of watching your baby being helped by paramedics was obviously overwhelming. You are doing the right thing, OP.

I agree it is most likely at his age, and with no previous neurological history, to be TIAs. They WILL keep happening without treatment, and they may, as PP said, herald a full stroke. FIL won't want to hear that but he must heed the warnings.

@Abergale I disagree. Now that the OP has witnessed the serious episode that she did, and fully understands the situation, she is in my view morally obliged to take every possible step she can to prevent him from driving, whether for nine hours or five minutes. The risk is too high and the potential consequences too catastrophic.

@AdviceNeededPlease11

So sorry to hear this. For what it is worth you are right to be very concerned and I would ask to speak to the Police for advice.

For what it is worth this happened with my beloved Grandparents. No one in the family would tackle it with them. I tried but got shouted down and was deemed too young to know anything (I was in my 30's for goodness sake).

Eventually it ended up in the worst possible situation and GM did not survive. Thankfully it was just them in the car and they didn't take anyone else with them. But it was horrific and an awful way to end a long and happy marriage. Deeply distressing - and as someone who has lost friends in car accidents - I still struggle with the fact the driving went unchecked.

Police first and foremost and see where you get to. Failing that write to the insurance company and alert them. They won't cover him.

At this moment, wrt the driving, it doesn't matter what is causing these absences - he can't legally drive. He should see a doctor to see if there is something that is treatable, but that is actually secondary to the driving issue.

As a PP says, seeing a doctor now will not stop him driving unless he agrees to it. Furthermore, GPs can't actually report someone to the DVLA without going through the whole seeing, advising, counselling stuff with that person, and only then can they inform the DVLA without the person's consent if they have reason to believe that the person is still driving against medical advice. This can be a drawn out process and isn't going to help the current crisis.

I used to be a GP (and I have an elderly DM who has only recently given up her car). People hate being told they can't drive, and I understand that. But sometimes we don't get that choice.

Tell your FIL that if he drives, his insurance will be invalid. If he has an accident, it will be as an uninsured driver. If a claim is made against him, he will be liable and if he's dead (in an accident!!) then the burden of that will fall on his estate --- ie his wife and children. It could beggar/bankrupt them. Is that what he wants?

I'd also tell them that if he's having lots of mini strokes (which these may be), he will quite possibly end up with a massive stroke - potentially losing all speech and mobility, needing 24 hour care - which might be avoidable before that damage is done. He won't want that either - so he needs to see a dr for his own health.

Good luck. It's a nightmare.

Your DH needs to be very serious with his parents, his mother sounds like an idiot: screaming and crying at you not to call an ambulance, what would she do at home if he collapses? just leave him?
It's not up for debate.

Oh god Morris Zapp I know exactly what you are referring to and think about it ever time I pass. In this case the elderly person did not die but took the life of a toddler.
Lives utterly destroyed..not only for the deceased family but imagine being elderly and causing such a huge tragedy. And the family of the elderly person wishing they had stopped them driving.
OP this is an awful and difficult situation but FIL cannot be allowed to drive.
Perhaps getting him to read the news reports of some of these tragic events would focus his mind.

MIL sounds like she's in complete denial about this and horrified he had one in front of you. I would press on with it without the support of your DH and stop him driving back, she probably realises the games up now.

I'm appalled at the prospect of them driving but I can see how your MIL is probably scared of what it means for your FIL. Not about him not being able to drive, but for his health. Having to face the reality and not be able to keep heads buried in the sand any longer.

The thing is, it's important for his health that he does see a GP sooner rather than later.

And he mustn't drive, but you've said your working on that.

She's not an idiot. She's a frightened elderly woman who is finding it difficult to face the fact that her husband is not in good health.

Neither her husband nor her are dealing with this well but it doesn't make them idiots.

What a difficult situation, he probably thinks because he runs he is super fit and won't have been and had the normal check ups that someone of his age should. The silly thing is, if he has the check ups and they find an issue with his blood pressure or cholesterol or whatever, this can quite often be treated with medication.
What did he say when you explained/described his absence for 20 minutes and how long it took him to recover ? That isn't the behaviour of someone who is just tired, if it had taken him 5 minutes I could understand it, but an hour before he knew where he was ?
MIL is in complete denial and probably terrified , and I would bet she has seen other similar episodes recently. She should be scared about getting in a car with anyone who is having these episodes, not only for her but also for anyone in the vicinity whilst he is driving.
If you have access to the car keys, hide them. I would be talking to FIL and explaining his symptoms could be his body warning him of trouble ahead, trouble that he could avoid if he acts now, does he want to be able to carry on running/walking/driving, even eating normal food ? then he needs to heed your advice and not put himself, MIL or anyone else at risk !

I watched this in real time. An elderly driver went through a red light, threaded the needle between two motorbikes, narrowly missed me and baby DD, only came to a halt when he ran into the car opposite. "Absence" was why.

He could have killed me, baby DD, two bikers and the man in the car. If this happened with your FIL, you would never forgive yourself. The guilt of having being involved in the death of a child? It's unthinkable.

Have the brother come down and say calmly that you will call the police and report if not. And follow through. Screaming, crying, hysteria, denial. They all are helped by the other person having very calm unwavering boundaries.

My DM (69) and another younger woman were killed by a pensioner in a head on collision. He 'lost concentration' and hit them head on. Couldn't remember a thing about it.
I cannot begin to tell you the devastation it has caused to our family.

DVLA can take months to deal with things like this depending on your area and the situation.

It’s a difficult situation for you OP and very easy for us to say what we would do in your situation. I really hope your DH backs you up on whatever you decide to do.

This happened near me. Elderly driver with undiagnosed dementia. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/baby-killed-car-parents-road-deaths-louis-thorold-foundation

My late dad was driving himself to physio one day and he landed miles out in the countryside and crashed into a wall. He was very lucky he didn't kill or injure someone as he crossed over the road. He had absolutely no memory of it. Didn't remember the guards being there, being in the ambulance or hospital. It was a suspected seizure as he had had brain surgery and radiotherapy for a large benign tumour years before. We had to take away his car keys after that. Sad but very necessary.

We had this - although a different health condition. I had no qualms in taking away FIL's keys as I wasn't prepared to have 'blood on my hands' if he continued to drive and maimed or killed someone. He was absolutely furious with me, but deep down I think he knew his time driving was up. Someone just had to be the bad guy...

Myself along with siblings and a few neighbours reported my dad to DVLA he should absolutely not be driving....

He has nearly hit most of his neighbours and lives close to a school he's mid 70's with Parkinson's very wobberly on feet now.

DVLA sent a FORM basically asking if he thinks he's fit to drive.... the GP has just suguested "local journeys" only... I have told him repeatedly to stop driving asked what would happen if he had an accident...etc he truly believes his freedom to drive trumps the possibility he might actually kill people

I reported an elderly woman on our street to the DVLA. they acted on it but it took time. Her son later told me ( not knowing it was me who reported it) that he was relieved as she wouldn’t listen to him

next time there’s an episode before Sunday, as other PP have said, call an ambulance he absolutely requires seeing by A&E

If no episode before Sunday your husband must take his keys and not let him dive

My blessed saint of a DM age 85 recently voluntarily decided to stop driving, which she absolutely loved. She's mentally sound as a pound, but there are days when she cannot feel her feet.

Giving up driving is a big, big step in curtailing independence and admitting frailty, her view though was that if she hurt someone she'd never live with herself. She'd also stopped driving the DGD around, and literally only went to the GP and Morrison's.

Everyone else has stepped up. There's a rota for children, grandchildren and wider family to take her wherever and whenever she needs to go. We've turned it into a positive by building in lunch, shopping and trips to the garden centre. All places she loves to drift around.

We are all enjoying the time with her too

Can you spin it that way Op?

I will also add this true story. My dad, who was blind in one eye and had macular degeneration in the other had to have injections in his eye every 6 weeks.

THE EYE DOCTOR told me, I shit you totally not, that he was fine to drive.

Stupefied does not come within strolling distance of my reaction.

It’s possible MIL is concerned about the impact of him not driving on their way of life, getting around etc. I went through this with my family.