That World Cup kiss

[mids2019]

The news about the world cup is being dominated by an unsolicited kiss on the lips on a Spanish player. I do not want to condone the rather bizarre and overly personal celebration of the head of Spanish football (idiot) but I do feel the whole matter has drawn focus away from the football on the pitch and made the hugely successful world cup a feminist issue where discussions are now revolving around appropriate behaviour between men and women rather than the actual sport.

Young girl players instead of looking up to the heroic exploits of our players are now getting drawn into much more general discussions about personal limits and what constitutes assault. I think this is all a pity really.

Apparently to some people, the fact that the players hugged and kissed each other means that it is open season for anyone to grab a kiss.

Apparently acting a certain way around your brother means you want your boss to act in the same way towards you too...go figure.

@saffronsoup

I have no idea how she actually feels given everyone is telling her how to think and feel and what to say or not say and who she has to be etc. It has become a snowball that she also has no control over.

If you'd read the whole of the thread, you would have seen this link, which you could have clicked on, to read Jenni's own words:

https://twitter.com/Jennihermoso/status/1695155154067087413?s=20

How do you define consent in this sports celebration scenario?

What does consent look like or sound like?

I dont believe him that he explicitly asked her if he could have a kiss and she said yes but I doubt that happened in any of the celebrations. When the women ran onto the field after the win and started grabbing each other, how did they know each woman consented to that touch in the moment?

And what defines consent if he goes down a row of women and kisses them all. In the moment, they all respond the same way given the nature of the situation (they hug him back, keep their hands on him, give him some back pats etc). How are some consenting and some non consenting?

You can't really tell from body language alone. In the clip with Jenni, she hugs him back, keeps her arm around him after he has let go of her head and then gives him some pats on the back as she is about to move down the line. That part has been clipped out in some of the shorts going around. I don't think there is a way to assess non verbal consent / non consent instantaneously in a moment like that. One would normally rely on the state of the relationship and the context.

And I am not sure what difference where he kissed her matters if the whole interaction was non consensual. Any touch that is non consensual is an issue - hugs, grabs, anything. Unwanted kisses on cheeks or foreheads are also non consensual and assault. Being pulled into a tight embrace and pressing your body against another person's is assault if unwanted and non consensual. I don't think there is anything specifically about a peck on the lips that changes the scenario.

@saffronsoup - so your male boss can hold your hed and kiss you on the lips on Thursday... because you know you have done an outstanding performance at work... or does that overstep your boundaries?

You don't think someone forcibly holding your head and kissing you would be an issue for you?

Crack on.

But don't try to tell others it shouldn't be an issue for them.

@saffronsoup we are talking about a specific woman who didn't consent. Your whataboutery is distractive nonsense and you know it.

A man grabbing a woman by the head and forcing a kiss on them is different from running up to hug someone after a goal, where they are both feeling the same enjoyment at such an act.

Male apologist pish so it is.

This is an example of how they have been treated in the past, it is no wonder they have finally said "enough". It is disgraceful.

twitter.com/hedvig_lindahl/status/1695046820802560187

The woman in the green shirt. FFS, he really hurts her (not sure who he is?).

For me, the sex of the parties doesn't determine right or wrong. If something is wrong, it is wrong whether it is a man or woman doing the action or being on the receiving end of the action.

An office is a very different context from a winning sports pitch. In an office setting, any touch from anyone would be inappropriate. Colleague, boss, maintenance - anyone, male or female. I haven't consented to any touch at all, implied or exlicit in the work place.

However as is seen on the sports field, touch is part of the context of the celebration. I have been touched many times during sports games by my own teammates and by others. Sports is physical and so touch is already built into the game. The women ended up in a heap after they won - piled on top of each other. You wouldn't do that in an office but it happened on a sports field. One can assume implied consent - in that if you are on this team, then being physical with each other is accepted and that celebrating through touch is going to happen.

This guy seemed to pretty much greet everyone the same way (more or less). He was rough, grabbing everyone, lifting them up. Very exuberant physical celebration. Clearly there is a much much bigger issue in women's Spanish football than this moment given the context and all the points alluded to in the twitter post that was linked - most of which have to do with the big issue rather than this moment. This little video clip on its own might have been laughed off and a nothing point if everything else was grand but given the clear issues surrounding the team, this has become a match stick. Rubiales will go down either way - given he was both involved in this and he is a much hated federation president. The team can use (and are already using) this explosion to get support for fixing the bigger issues. They don't just want Rubiales gone, they want the entire leadership gone.

It's their previous manager Ignacio Quereda, he coached the women's team for 27 years.

So this is going to the courts and I think if there is specific legal action consent will be explored there specifically with any defamation suits. It does look like this event is the 'tip of the iceberg' for other behaviour so we will see what events unfold.

I do think I'm future there has to be caution about non consensual hugging and cheek kissing given the focus on this and maybe the whole thing will bring into sharp focus social boundaries when it comes to physical touching (between any sex). The issue is that a cheek kids can be viewed as a greeting while contact with another's lips then becomes sexual in nature. The site of the kiss important?

That is just the use of language to make one good and one bad.

You could just as easily say that forcefully grabbing someone after a goal is different from having a hug where both feeling the same enjoyment of winning the World Cup.

Young girl players should be happy that professional players are standing up for their rights so that they will, hopefully, have an easier time in the sport in the future.

The England women's team are publicly supporting the complaint and I'm sure they know better about the situation than any of us, so maybe we should just trust their judgement?

Bloody hell. 27 years of getting a free pass to treat woman like shit.

@iDontBelieveAnyOfYou

I just can't bring myself to get mad about it, I've seen Spanish managers do that to men as well. It's a bit of a continental thing isn't it.

"Continental" here. I can assure you men kissing men ON THE LIPS is not "a thing", particularly in a homophobic sport like football. It's rapey as hell, and creepy to minimize it.

And yes, it's a shame this is taking away from the achievements of a brilliant group of women, and thus, perpetuating the abuse. The fault for that is squarely with the perpetrator and his apologists. Sadly, it also is part of a larger picture but before the World Cup (you know half the normal squad boycotted because of mistreatment, right?) and after (threatening to sue the victim among items.)

i saw it, i was watching the whole procession being hugged and kiss and the kiss on the lips was so very shocking.
it is wrong

@saffronsoup - so in Sports it's ok for a woman being touched and abused in this way by a man ... anywhere else not so much?

Im from Spain. The peck in the lips is only reserved for close friendships (between two females too) and family members in Spain. Its nothing to do with what that entitled pig did clamping her head and kissing her. Same with hugs and other signs of affection. In this case there is obviously no consent.

Its as clear as anything that it wasnt consensual. He really needs to go, he is such an embarrassment. Embarrassment for our country too.
In Rubiales' declarations yesterday he was talking about his social assassination and that HE is now going to sue people responsible for this. He reiterated said he is not going to resign. He is playing the victim now FFS. And a few other entitled male pigs were clapping, not being able to stand up to the bully.
I hope he will be kicked out soon. Its actually really embarrassing to hear him talking. The whole thing embarrass us to death. All my friends and family members from Spain I talked to, all agree a hundred per cent. Also Spanish newspapers opinion articles want him to go asap.

omg. What a horrid man.

The FIFA Disciplinary Committee provisionally suspends Luis Rubiales, president of the RFEF, for 90 days.

https://twitter.com/RichJLaverty/status/1695409649502114199?s=20

Good

Sorry, I am not sure I understand your point or what you mean by in this way. In the sporting context, there is physical touch between men and women and women and women and men and men. Many sports and sports celebrations are quite physical. That is a completely different context from an office. The majority of things you do in sport would be completely inappropriate in an office setting. For example, the women all ran together, jumped on each other and landed on top of each other on the ground. That would not be okay in many other settings but it was okay in this setting for the women to be aggressive like that and touch each other in that way and lie on top of each other.

This made my day ❤

Great news.

Behave yourself and stop being an apologist for sexual assault.