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Original poster

That World Cup kiss

331 replies

mids2019 · 26/08/2023 08:03

The news about the world cup is being dominated by an unsolicited kiss on the lips on a Spanish player. I do not want to condone the rather bizarre and overly personal celebration of the head of Spanish football (idiot) but I do feel the whole matter has drawn focus away from the football on the pitch and made the hugely successful world cup a feminist issue where discussions are now revolving around appropriate behaviour between men and women rather than the actual sport.

Young girl players instead of looking up to the heroic exploits of our players are now getting drawn into much more general discussions about personal limits and what constitutes assault. I think this is all a pity really.

OP posts:
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6
Frenchfancy · 26/08/2023 11:57

Anotherchristianmama · 26/08/2023 08:46

It's an incredibly important discussion. Very few of our daughters will end up as professional sportswomen. All of our daughters will have men pushing and trampling on their boundaries.

This is unfortunately true. All of our daughters. I think it is brilliant that someone is brave enough to say "that is not acceptable"

Lottapianos · 26/08/2023 11:57

'As per the question of kissing on the lips as a greeting or celebration as a cultural norm. This is Jenni and her brother (2 pictures)'

And what the actual Jeff does that have to do with her being grabbed and forcibly kissed by another man? Without her consent, as she has repeatedly clarified

UncleHerbie · 26/08/2023 11:59

In a nightclub chatting to my mates and a group of blokes we knew fairly well, while I was saying something, one of the blokes decided to snog me, sticking his tongue in my mid chat open mouth. So I clamped my teeth together and bit him. Not only was he humiliated, he’d think twice about trying that shit again. Good

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IClaudine · 26/08/2023 12:00

Lottapianos I was about to ask the same.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 26/08/2023 12:00

I don't think it's right that this is deflecting from their achievements.

It's not. They have achieved two things - winning the world cup, and standing up for women's right not to be treated like objects by sleazy, misogynist pigs. That is surely what we would like to see in our female role models.

These women are being watched and admired by thousands of young girls. Do we want them to be thinking that non-consensual sexual contact is just something women have to put up with if they want to be allowed to get anywhere in sport? Or do we want them to see that strong women won't just shut up about this kind of bullshit any more?

saffronsoup · 26/08/2023 12:01

7eleven · 26/08/2023 11:55

@saffronsoup have you heard of the concept of CONSENT?

If you read my post, it was related to the question of whether or not a kiss on the lips is a cultural norm in Spain with most posters saying no, never. Those pictures would say otherwise.

I am curious how do you define consent in a sports celebration? We say a lot of physical touch between many people in the celebrations, none that seemed to involved explicit conversations about consent. I am curious as to how you define what interactions or actions were consenting and which weren't based on viewing the videos of all the celebations that took place? There was a lot of grabbing, hugging, head holding, kissing across the board...all done impulsively and exuberantly in celebration without a discussion of consent. Is the issue here specifically that it is the kiss on the lips that requires explicit consent and that all other contact is fine or what is your view on how to define consent in the situation as the whole celebration unfolded?

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 26/08/2023 12:02

'As per the question of kissing on the lips as a greeting or celebration as a cultural norm. This is Jenni and her brother (2 pictures)'

So?! What part of her saying 'I did not consent' do people not understand?

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 26/08/2023 12:03

Maddy70 · 26/08/2023 11:17

As far as I am aware she hasn't put a complaint in. Its other people. That may be wrong of course and perhaps she has. But as far as I am aware she was asked if the kiss was consensual, she laughed and said not exactly but it's fine .... and continues to talk about the win

Show quote history

Ohhhhhh, I see. Despite pontificating here, you actually know fuck all about it and haven’t even bothered to do so much as a cursory google? Gotcha, that explains it. Ta.

Lottapianos · 26/08/2023 12:03

'I am curious how do you define consent in a sports celebration?'

I am curious about why you are working so hard to find an excuse for this man's behaviour

NotMadeOfStone · 26/08/2023 12:04

7eleven · 26/08/2023 11:55

@saffronsoup have you heard of the concept of CONSENT?

Spot the photo where her brother is holding her head locked in his hands so she can't escape.

Honestly fuck off with your gross slut shaming and abuser apologist nonsense.

NotMadeOfStone · 26/08/2023 12:04

@7eleven sorry meant to quote the post above yours by @saffronsoup but think we're in agreement anyway 😁

Littlefish · 26/08/2023 12:08

Anotherchristianmama · 26/08/2023 08:46

It's an incredibly important discussion. Very few of our daughters will end up as professional sportswomen. All of our daughters will have men pushing and trampling on their boundaries.

I absolutely agree.

Livinghappy · 26/08/2023 12:09

They have achieved two things - winning the world cup, and standing up for women's right not to be treated like objects by sleazy, misogynist pigs. That is surely what we would like to see in our female role models

This is a "me too" moment for women's sport and will be a defining moment.

IClaudine · 26/08/2023 12:09

NotMadeOfStone · 26/08/2023 12:04

Spot the photo where her brother is holding her head locked in his hands so she can't escape.

Honestly fuck off with your gross slut shaming and abuser apologist nonsense.

Show quote history

Exactly. Compare Hermanos' body language. She is enthusiatically and warmly embracing and kissing her brother. In the kiss with Rubiales she is trying to strain away from him, but can't because he has his hands clamped to her head.

BitOutOfPractice · 26/08/2023 12:09

saffronsoup · 26/08/2023 09:16

Sport celebrations can be very physical and very touchy feely. If you look at the men’s World Cup, there were also lots of hugs and kisses (none with apparent request for consent). Just people grabbing each other in celebration.

It also isn’t really about how it made her feel. He could have done the same action to 5 women on the team and each would have felt differently, some feeling it was fine, others feeling uncomfortable. There are also individual and cultural factors at play in what is appropriate in a greeting or celebration.

Clearly in this setting the context and the lack of close relationship made it wrong and he didn’t care or consider anything else. However there is a lot of grabbing and kissing and hugging in sports celebrations generally (between men and men, men and women and women’s bad women) so it will be interesting to see if this changes what is seen as acceptable. Coaches and players on the bench will often run onto the field and grab the winning players.

Will the pre-existing context and tension end up being the key factor here or will it lead to a general view that sport celebrations should be less physically intimate.

There really isn’t “a lot of grabbing and kissing and hugging in sports celebrations generally (between men and men, men and women and women’s bad women)” though is there? Because mixed sex team sport is rare.

saffronsoup · 26/08/2023 12:15

Lottapianos · 26/08/2023 12:03

'I am curious how do you define consent in a sports celebration?'

I am curious about why you are working so hard to find an excuse for this man's behaviour

I am not defending him. He can go down in a ball of flames for all I care. Seems he has a history and is generally a problematic guy. But there is a lot of pithy posts on here with vague foundation that seems to just be more oh lets get angry at a man versus being able to actually articulate the issue. It is easy to jump on a bandwagon of people you already hate and be angry but that doesn't go far when you can't articulate the issue. Hating for the sake of hating doesn't actually help anyone.

So many people keep saying she didn't consent but then insist it doesn't matter what consent is or isn't. He and others also grabbed and kissed many other people on the field that day - yet this one interaction has become the focus because of the viral video - what makes this one grab and kiss wrong but the rest of the grab and kisses are not wrong? At no point do I see any conversations about consent in any of the celebrations before a grab or kiss. If you want to hold someone accountable, you should be able to back it up beyond repeating lines that you can't even articulate the meaning of. What does consent look like in a post win celebration?

Seems she is getting pressure from every direction about how to respond and what the expectations now are on her shoulders about this. I have no idea how she actually feels given everyone is telling her how to think and feel and what to say or not say and who she has to be etc. It has become a snowball that she also has no control over.

luckylavender · 26/08/2023 12:15

iDontBelieveAnyOfYou · 26/08/2023 08:24

I never actually saw the kiss but looked it up out of curiosity after hearing all the hype. I expect a rather lengthy snog but all I saw was a bit of a peck. I just can't bring myself to get mad about it, I've seen Spanish managers do that to men as well. It's a bit of a continental thing isn't it.

It is very tiresome when people get addicted to drama instead of focusing on sport itself. Such a massive achievement and nobody is really focusing on the match. I'm sure someone will be along with a boring lecture about how the kiss amounts to 'rape' but I just can't get excited about something so small, nor do I care.

I honestly think newspapers don't want to run a plain story about women's football so instead they have to make a fuss about something to spice up the story. I am so, so tired of gossip and drama overshadowing the achievements of successful women.

I don't agree. He vastly overstepped the mark. It was such a creepy thing to do & the way he has behaved since has shown his hand. High time women were respected and allowed to enforce their own boundaries. I can't believe this still needs saying in 2023. Mumsnet is always full of advice about teaching children to enforce boundaries & not having to kiss anyone without giving consent.

IClaudine · 26/08/2023 12:19

saffronsoup did he kiss any other player on the mouth that day? I don't think he did.

The fact that the whole team are supporting Hermanos speaks volumes about this man. They experience his day to day behaviour and I am willing to bet that behaviour is not what it should be.

7eleven · 26/08/2023 12:28

saffronsoup · 26/08/2023 12:01

If you read my post, it was related to the question of whether or not a kiss on the lips is a cultural norm in Spain with most posters saying no, never. Those pictures would say otherwise.

I am curious how do you define consent in a sports celebration? We say a lot of physical touch between many people in the celebrations, none that seemed to involved explicit conversations about consent. I am curious as to how you define what interactions or actions were consenting and which weren't based on viewing the videos of all the celebations that took place? There was a lot of grabbing, hugging, head holding, kissing across the board...all done impulsively and exuberantly in celebration without a discussion of consent. Is the issue here specifically that it is the kiss on the lips that requires explicit consent and that all other contact is fine or what is your view on how to define consent in the situation as the whole celebration unfolded?

Show quote history

That is such an obtuse reply that I’m not going to dignify it with a full response.

saffronsoup · 26/08/2023 12:32

IClaudine · 26/08/2023 12:19

saffronsoup did he kiss any other player on the mouth that day? I don't think he did.

The fact that the whole team are supporting Hermanos speaks volumes about this man. They experience his day to day behaviour and I am willing to bet that behaviour is not what it should be.

Edited

It is really hard right now to find a video of the trophy presentation in its entirety. However from a fan video I watched, he does lift up pretty much every player and some men in suits too and seems to grab a lot of them by the head. The video isn't good enough quality to see exactly what is happening and it is only the view from the back but his approach seems similar (from a distance) for most of the people he greets. His greetings are all rough (in that he lifts everyone up).

NotMadeOfStone · 26/08/2023 12:33

@saffronsoup your latest posts aren't adding much by way of explanation tbh.

Let's say he kissed other players on the lips forcibly (I haven't seen evidence of it but never mind). Does that somehow mean that him kissing Hermoso is acceptable?

She didn't consent.
She didn't consent.
She didn't consent.
End of.

7eleven · 26/08/2023 12:33

NotMadeOfStone · 26/08/2023 12:04

@7eleven sorry meant to quote the post above yours by @saffronsoup but think we're in agreement anyway 😁

Yes I work that out, thankfully 😃

IClaudine · 26/08/2023 12:35

saffronsoup · 26/08/2023 12:32

It is really hard right now to find a video of the trophy presentation in its entirety. However from a fan video I watched, he does lift up pretty much every player and some men in suits too and seems to grab a lot of them by the head. The video isn't good enough quality to see exactly what is happening and it is only the view from the back but his approach seems similar (from a distance) for most of the people he greets. His greetings are all rough (in that he lifts everyone up).

Show quote history

But he doesn't kiss anyone else on the mouth, which is the issue.

7eleven · 26/08/2023 12:38

IClaudine · 26/08/2023 12:35

But he doesn't kiss anyone else on the mouth, which is the issue.

Show quote history

Apparently to some people, the fact that the players hugged and kissed each other means that it is open season for anyone to grab a kiss.

myrtleWilson · 26/08/2023 12:41

True dat @7eleven - I'm expecting at least on ref this premier league weekend to grab his crotch in celebration of making the right pen decision...