Not only did Lucy Letby kill and badly hurt babies…

[determinedtomakethiswork]

She also prepared the memory boxes for parents of the dead children. Can you imagine having a memory box with photos and footprints of your dead child which had been taken by his or her merger?

That goes way beyond the murder. I just don't know how the families are coping.

they were just psychopathic, ie opened an upstairs window and lay a baby on the outside window sill, tortured a guinea pig, etc

the baby thing is another level but although it can be a precursor torturing an animal or being an actual psychopath doesn't mean you will be a murderer.

Neither sociopath or psychopath are modern diagnoses. They were removed from the DSM for the 3rd edition in 1980 and replaced with antisocial personality disorder so unless these children were adults before 1980, they did not receive a diagnosis of psychopath or sociopath.

I agree. It takes a certain set of circumstances for it to show up. If Lucy Letby had been in a different job where she was not responsible for vulnerable babies/people, then she might never have done something so awful, because she would never have had the chance. Much like some of the SS guards in concentration camps - prior to being in that position, maybe they'd never displayed their cruel streak.

what I don't understand is how her parents could have brought her up to the age of 18 without realising that there was something seriously wrong, and that she needed to be prevented from becoming a nurse.

Some people can 'flip' at some point maybe and something can send them into criminal behaviour.

What documentary ?

It is possible it started from a different motivation, for example a very ill child or a child in pain where she decided to play God and put the child out of their misery. Or a curiosity to see what would happen if she did x. That then seeing the child die maybe gave her a rush or a realization that she felt no guilt or remorse and so she did it again and became more brazen about it. I did see a comment in an article that said she caused some of the infants pain which indicates a complete absence of empathy or conscience.

just speculating that it may not have been a deep desire to be a serial
killer of infants from childhood but developed over time while in the nursing role. Nursing can deaden and change one in ways they might not expect.

It's panorama on BBC1.

she was fit to stand trial i doubt she be in the psychiatric prison

management should be punished but the inquiry will just have lessons learned blah blah

The older one has a diagnosis, but the parents suspected it from about age 11. Bright girl, top sets, very hard working, compliant, polite, obedient, etc, but always said whatever will get the best reaction at the time, no concern about whether it was the truth or not, and no concern how long it would take to be found out. For example, came home with report card, told parents about top exam results, lots of praise, reward, etc - asked for money, got money - report card did not show the results she said she had, which became apparent when parents opened it a few minutes later, by which time money was in her hand and she was out the door.... It is hard to describe but she lied to get an advantage, even if the advantage was only for a few minutes, no concern about consequences later at all. She also put her baby brother on the outside window sill. And killed a chicken by kicking it to death, an put it back in its cage and said it was fine - clearly visible on CCTV killing it. Stole from parents, eventually attacked mother and beat her until she handed over her bank card. Anyway, parents knew something was seriously wrong from about 11, their second and third children are normal, and their fourth child is worse, still only 15, no diagnosis.

But the first child is doing better now, has made the decision to conform to society, and earn their living - highly intelligent but no qualifications, did in fact eat a GCSE paper sitting in the exam.... but after a few years of heavy drinking and crime changed their mind about wanting to live like that, got an apprenticeship, and progressing very fast up career ladder

She has always been nice to be with in a strange way, even if you were afraid of being pick pocketed, and not sure if you were being lied to. Now says she wants to do well, and I hope she means it. I enjoy her company but still wouldn't have her in my house.

The parents very firmly vetoed babysitting though, and probably still would if they heard of it. ( child is in their 20s)

I don't agree with the pp who said no one is born evil. Unfortunately, some people just are. I think for a tiny few, evil is innate.

I find that really chilling @Nevermay

I suspect she will go on to excel in her career just by being able to read each moment to her own advantage and never actually giving a shit about anyone or anything.

How do the parents try to support her? Does she have regular therapy?

Can their parents be relaxed around them?

The balance of good and evil could be there to begin with but then it's a question of what tips the balance to go either to the evil or angel side so to speak.

I wonder if the friend regrets speaking on behalf of LL.

I thought it was interesting the friend mentioned Lucy had a fascination with her own difficult birth and recovery. I wouldn’t be surprised if that factored heavily into LLs psychopathy.

More broadly LL appeared heavily motivated to seek/gain attention from others, for example the triplets were conceived without assistance and the staff were excited about their arrival.

In some cases it seems her behaviour escalated after perceived slights.

Ordinary people will never understand the motivation of a narcissistic psychopath, which I suspect she is.

Awful and that's all they have left of their babies. But at the same time it will be a reminder of her.😪

Parents always do their best, even after she beat up her mum and they decided they couldn't have her in the house with younger children anymore they rented out a flat for her and tried to keep her on the right side of the law.. they are not well off, but are I think still paying for the flat, and have paid for lots of therapy over the years - I am not sure if it is ongoing at the moment or not, but I think not. She gets a warm welcome whenever she pops into their house, home cooked meals, invitations to come on family holidays, etc. She doesn't live far away, easy walking distance. They are getting on better now than a few years ago, certainly. She is actually the only one who seems to be able to really connect to her youngest sister,

You could be right, she could excel and make a million, and never care about anyone- it is scary to think what kind of mother she might make - I hope she doesn't have children

I don't know if there are any parallels with Letby I imagine someone so evil mist have shown some signs of it before she started murdering

One other thing that she did that speaks to her narcissism is searching endlessly online for the parents of the babies she killed or hurt. I didn't get whether she also searched for other parents, but it was reported that she searched over 2000 times in one year, and 277 times in one month. That's a lot of viewing of the distressed parents. Including on Christmas Day. She said this was just because those babies stuck in her mind but clearly she was revisiting their distress, seeing if she'd made an impact. That's different than creating a crisis to see some guy, it's a whole layer of gleefulness at the misfortune of others, of having power and influence over them.

no, money and alcohol and knives under lock and key at all times,

when I visit, I sit on my hand bag!

My heart is with all these families

I cannot imagine their pain

Absolutely awful

The podcast (the trial of Lucy Letby) is really really interesting. There were a number of very significant occasions where Lucy killed the children, e.g. on Father's Day, on the hundredth day of life, on the day a child was due to go home, on the child's due date because they were premature. She tried to kill two sets of twins, as well as the triplets.

I think the the diagnosis was a turning point for the older one, she understood herself better and realised she could make choices . The younger one is worse though. Don't know what will become of her. Older one ran away several times alone as a child. Younger one ran away with next door neighbours baby aged about 10. Found and returned by police. I don't know what would have happened if they hadn't been found but maybe nothing

Obviously we will never know her true motives. But the prosecution hinted that she liked the drama and sympathy, and she felt disrespected when less experienced nurses got placed in nursery 1 instead of her.

Perhaps one day, a baby in her charge died purely by chance and she liked the sympathy she received. She wanted to be with the sick babies where she had more of a chance to receive that attention and sympathy or act the hero. But nothing happened. So she decided to make it happen herself.

Maybe she didn’t intend to kill or cause long term harm at first. She perhaps made a baby desat and intended to revive them but it all went wrong. And then she realises that she doesn’t actually feel fear or guilt about it. Or the attention & sympathy she receives outweighs the guilt she might feel. Or she gets a buzz from it that becomes addictive.

And then she starts to get the huff because less senior nurses get her prized room 1 shift. So when they go out on their break she sabotages their charges. The designated nurse comes back to find their baby ill and desaturating, and they panic. But low and behold, cool and collected Nurse Letby comes in from no where to save the day and shows everyone how it’s done. Sometimes she ‘saves’ the baby and is a hero, sometimes her efforts are in vain and her colleagues console her saying she’s an amazing, dedicated nurse who tried her best. All eyes are on her.

Then she has her doctor love on the side. She hasn’t seen him for week due to being on holiday. She asks if he’s on the unit on her return but he isn’t, he’s on clinic. But he’s the ‘on call’ doctor. She knows if she makes a baby desat he will come running to the unit to assist and they will save the baby together or else they will comfort each other if they are unsuccessful. Regardless, she still gets to see him and get his attention and sympathy.

During one attempt it was noted that she received a needle stick injury and had to go to A&E. She proper milked it when she messaged her doctor love and made a big deal about fainting and being overly feminine/damsel in distress.