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Original poster

Not only did Lucy Letby kill and badly hurt babies…

803 replies

determinedtomakethiswork · 18/08/2023 22:23

She also prepared the memory boxes for parents of the dead children. Can you imagine having a memory box with photos and footprints of your dead child which had been taken by his or her merger?

That goes way beyond the murder. I just don't know how the families are coping.

OP posts:
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28
AndAllOurYesterdays · 25/08/2023 22:58

We used to go to the same place on holiday every year when we were kids. My parents wanted to see family there. I don't think that's an indicator of family weirdness, just being a bit stuck in your ways.

happinessischocolate · 26/08/2023 00:28

Highdaysandholidays1 · 25/08/2023 18:05

I think holidaying in Torquay three times a year every year is quite strange! Have you ever been there? (I mean, it's fine, but 3 x a year?)

I was born in Torquay but never when back there with my family, by coincidence my husband went to a Torquay holiday park every year for the whole of his childhood and beyond at least once a year, and I went there with him, our kids and his family.

It's a holiday resort

Thousands of people's let go there every year

happinessischocolate · 26/08/2023 00:33

Surely her behaviour links with addiction?

For whatever reason she did the first one, after that it was a compulsion.

No reason.

Just an overwhelming need/desire/want to do it again

There can be no rational logic?

Highdaysandholidays1 · 26/08/2023 00:39

@happinessischocolate I was making an unfunny joke, Torquay is a holiday destination but three times a year with your parents is a LOT.

happinessischocolate · 26/08/2023 00:48

Highdaysandholidays1 · 26/08/2023 00:39

@happinessischocolate I was making an unfunny joke, Torquay is a holiday destination but three times a year with your parents is a LOT.

It's not

Do you think people who have holiday homes, which they go to every bank holiday and long weekends are weird?

If you lived in a holiday resort. Full of second homes and mobile homes/caravans you would know the same people are there for many weeks of the year.

Chickentikka567 · 26/08/2023 07:01

Why did Jeffrey Dahmer do it? Why did Ted Bundy? And as someone else pointed out, why the Manchester bomber? There definitely wouldn't be the same level of desperation to know why.

DrasticAction · 26/08/2023 07:33

@slore
"I did notice she can't spell so accadmia doesn't come easy to her".

Spelling ability doesn't show any links to actual intelligence at all.

You can be super intellectual but not know how to spell for a huge range of n reason

DrasticAction · 26/08/2023 07:33

@Chickentikka567 those people's crimes have been poured over for years and years and what their motivation was

Chickentikka567 · 26/08/2023 09:00

Wasn't Albert Einstein dyslexic?

HawnyThorn · 26/08/2023 09:39

I think this case has shown just how many people think that something they wouldn't do, must therefore be weird and indicative of something.

It's reminding me a lot of SM including MN in general; where people seem to have a great difficulty in understanding that everyone is different. And then reading into things, twisting them, extrapolating and projecting.

MentholLoad · 26/08/2023 11:56

Crapsummer2023 · 25/08/2023 22:17

Bet you weren’t speculating whether the Manchester bomber had been sexually abused. He was just a monster with no backstory.

Why are some middle class white women so desperate to provide ‘reasons’ for this murderer?!

Show quote history

☝️👏☝️👏☝️👏

HawnyThorn · 26/08/2023 12:49

MentholLoad · 26/08/2023 11:56

☝️👏☝️👏☝️👏

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I agree many people seem to want some kind of explanation and a lot of the theories have little connection to LL crimes.

But thats nothing to do with Islamic or otherwise planned religious terrorism. They're completely different scenarios with one having a very clear motive.

Chickentikka567 · 26/08/2023 13:35

In the unlikely event that one day she turned around and said why she did it, what difference will it make to you anyway?
No reasons are going to make sense, so why are people desperate to find out why?

LoveRules · 26/08/2023 16:32

I guess we can all assume male murderers were angry people/women hating but a young nurse killing newborn underweight babies under their parents' noses makes one try to work out what on earth made her into such a bloodthirsty cold hearted psycho

BIossomtoes · 26/08/2023 16:38

LoveRules · 26/08/2023 16:32

I guess we can all assume male murderers were angry people/women hating but a young nurse killing newborn underweight babies under their parents' noses makes one try to work out what on earth made her into such a bloodthirsty cold hearted psycho

We could wonder the same about Shipman. He didn’t seem to be an angry woman hater. I don’t remember all this speculation about his motivation, we just went with evil nutcase.

27Mankinis · 26/08/2023 16:41

BIossomtoes · 26/08/2023 16:38

We could wonder the same about Shipman. He didn’t seem to be an angry woman hater. I don’t remember all this speculation about his motivation, we just went with evil nutcase.

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Don't know. I watched a documentary about him and they came down on the side of inadequate male who had self esteem issues and hated women particularly and vulnerable people generally and liked to exert control over others because he was weak and pathetic and it made him feel powerful.

HawnyThorn · 26/08/2023 16:48

BIossomtoes · 26/08/2023 16:38

We could wonder the same about Shipman. He didn’t seem to be an angry woman hater. I don’t remember all this speculation about his motivation, we just went with evil nutcase.

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There was nothing about Shipmans crimes that were specifically sexist or misogynistic.

His murders were opportunistic and not specifically calculated to target females because of their sex.

And as a Doctor there were numerous red flags and investigations over the years. None of which ever identified sexism.

Efacsen · 26/08/2023 16:49

BIossomtoes · 26/08/2023 16:38

We could wonder the same about Shipman. He didn’t seem to be an angry woman hater. I don’t remember all this speculation about his motivation, we just went with evil nutcase.

Edited
Show quote history

It's approaching 25 years since HS murders - SM was in it's infancy so maybe that's the reason for lack of speculation wrt his motivation

BIossomtoes · 26/08/2023 17:03

HawnyThorn · 26/08/2023 16:48

There was nothing about Shipmans crimes that were specifically sexist or misogynistic.

His murders were opportunistic and not specifically calculated to target females because of their sex.

And as a Doctor there were numerous red flags and investigations over the years. None of which ever identified sexism.

Show quote history

Exactly. You said it more succinctly than me.

TruffleShuffke · 26/08/2023 20:18

With Shipman, there were red flags through his work as a Dr. He was addicted to and prescribing himself pethidine fraudulently in the 1970s. He was sacked by the practice he worked for and disciplined by the GMC but not struck off. That's a biggie for a start. That shows he had mental health i.e addiction problems and used his position as a Dr to commit crimes to feed his addiction.

Many years later, a number of individuals, some professionals and some not, reported unusually high death rates for patients that Shipman in particular was signing death and cremation certificates for, and suspiciously, wills made leaving money to Shipman.

They were 'smoking guns' and upon serious investigation by the Police, evidence of fraudulent signing of wills was clear, exhumation of body's occurred and charges were made.

That didn't happen with Lucy Letby. There was an elevated death rate on the unit she worked on which was reviewed by external agencies like the Royal College of Paediatrics and child health who could not come up with any reason, given all the medical evidence, for why the babies had died. As the medical evidence found nothing ouside of natural causes.

So there was no evidence of crimes. And certainly no evidence of a particular individual killing babies.

But some people had possibly valid suspicions that crimes were committed and that Lucy was the likely perpetrator based on circumstances.

And the Police reverse-engineered a case. They didn't begin as is usual, with singificant evidence of a crime and significant evidence tying a suspect to that crime.

They started off trying to prove crimes had been committed with a suspect already in mind.

That's why many people have reservations about this case. It's why the Police and CPS spent years building a case before charging and taking to court. And why it was an incredibly long court case based on 'expert' evidence which virtually no individual or jury could understand, accept or discount unless they were experts themselves.

It's got nothing to do with not thinking Lucy was a lovely white girl so couldn't have done it, or not understanding her motivation, or any other things. Including 'wanting to defend a serial killer'. I mean, come on, why would someone want to do that?

It's to do with thinking that just maybe, a miscarriage of justice may have happened.

And that's worrying for all of society.

Whatthechicken · 27/08/2023 01:08

TruffleShuffke · 26/08/2023 20:18

With Shipman, there were red flags through his work as a Dr. He was addicted to and prescribing himself pethidine fraudulently in the 1970s. He was sacked by the practice he worked for and disciplined by the GMC but not struck off. That's a biggie for a start. That shows he had mental health i.e addiction problems and used his position as a Dr to commit crimes to feed his addiction.

Many years later, a number of individuals, some professionals and some not, reported unusually high death rates for patients that Shipman in particular was signing death and cremation certificates for, and suspiciously, wills made leaving money to Shipman.

They were 'smoking guns' and upon serious investigation by the Police, evidence of fraudulent signing of wills was clear, exhumation of body's occurred and charges were made.

That didn't happen with Lucy Letby. There was an elevated death rate on the unit she worked on which was reviewed by external agencies like the Royal College of Paediatrics and child health who could not come up with any reason, given all the medical evidence, for why the babies had died. As the medical evidence found nothing ouside of natural causes.

So there was no evidence of crimes. And certainly no evidence of a particular individual killing babies.

But some people had possibly valid suspicions that crimes were committed and that Lucy was the likely perpetrator based on circumstances.

And the Police reverse-engineered a case. They didn't begin as is usual, with singificant evidence of a crime and significant evidence tying a suspect to that crime.

They started off trying to prove crimes had been committed with a suspect already in mind.

That's why many people have reservations about this case. It's why the Police and CPS spent years building a case before charging and taking to court. And why it was an incredibly long court case based on 'expert' evidence which virtually no individual or jury could understand, accept or discount unless they were experts themselves.

It's got nothing to do with not thinking Lucy was a lovely white girl so couldn't have done it, or not understanding her motivation, or any other things. Including 'wanting to defend a serial killer'. I mean, come on, why would someone want to do that?

It's to do with thinking that just maybe, a miscarriage of justice may have happened.

And that's worrying for all of society.

Totally agree @TruffleShuffke , but it feels awfully lonely to be feeling uneasy about the circumstantial evidence atm. Some of the ‘insights’ and speculation on this have been absolutely wild. Trips to Torquay - clearly a weird family, speculation over CSA, no emotion in police interviews = psychopath. People calling for the death penalty on circumstantial evidence - it was only a few weeks ago that an innocent man was exonerated after spending 17 years in prison, after DNA evidence proved him innocent years earlier. I think it’s time for fully open and accessible justice - all of the court transcripts made fully available, most of us only know the ‘highlights’ of the case reported by the media - whose motivation is revenue through clicks and sales.

Blueink · 27/08/2023 04:26

TruffleShuffke · 26/08/2023 20:18

With Shipman, there were red flags through his work as a Dr. He was addicted to and prescribing himself pethidine fraudulently in the 1970s. He was sacked by the practice he worked for and disciplined by the GMC but not struck off. That's a biggie for a start. That shows he had mental health i.e addiction problems and used his position as a Dr to commit crimes to feed his addiction.

Many years later, a number of individuals, some professionals and some not, reported unusually high death rates for patients that Shipman in particular was signing death and cremation certificates for, and suspiciously, wills made leaving money to Shipman.

They were 'smoking guns' and upon serious investigation by the Police, evidence of fraudulent signing of wills was clear, exhumation of body's occurred and charges were made.

That didn't happen with Lucy Letby. There was an elevated death rate on the unit she worked on which was reviewed by external agencies like the Royal College of Paediatrics and child health who could not come up with any reason, given all the medical evidence, for why the babies had died. As the medical evidence found nothing ouside of natural causes.

So there was no evidence of crimes. And certainly no evidence of a particular individual killing babies.

But some people had possibly valid suspicions that crimes were committed and that Lucy was the likely perpetrator based on circumstances.

And the Police reverse-engineered a case. They didn't begin as is usual, with singificant evidence of a crime and significant evidence tying a suspect to that crime.

They started off trying to prove crimes had been committed with a suspect already in mind.

That's why many people have reservations about this case. It's why the Police and CPS spent years building a case before charging and taking to court. And why it was an incredibly long court case based on 'expert' evidence which virtually no individual or jury could understand, accept or discount unless they were experts themselves.

It's got nothing to do with not thinking Lucy was a lovely white girl so couldn't have done it, or not understanding her motivation, or any other things. Including 'wanting to defend a serial killer'. I mean, come on, why would someone want to do that?

It's to do with thinking that just maybe, a miscarriage of justice may have happened.

And that's worrying for all of society.

There is copious evidence of the crimes, sadly early evidence was missed in the case (blood result with artificially injected insulin) and whistle blowers (who were medical experts) ignored.

The deaths and attacks were investigated meticulously, each on own meet.

Jurors have plenty of time to learn medical terminology and to systematically review the evidence.

I agree what’s written about the parents is speculative and probably unfair.

Much attention has also been given to what LL said about them in texts. We know she manipulated and lied to provide a cover and gain sympathy.

iloveeverykindofcat · 27/08/2023 05:05

@Chickentikka567 In those cases, we do have an 'explanation': not one a normal person could relate to, obviously, but one that makes sense from the killer's perspective.

Ted Bundy was a necrophile and a psychopath - he killed and defiled bodies for the sexual pleasure, and because he was a psychopath, there was no conscience preventing him.

Dahmer was an alcoholic, obsessive, self-hating gay man - he killed out of obsession and sexual desire for a totally complacent, unresisting 'partner', and chose victims he believed would not immediately raise police suspicion (and he was right).

Salman Abedi was a "Muslim" extremist of below average intelligence, at an appropriate age to be sucked into a cult. He no doubt believed he would go directly to paradise.

For Letby we have no explanation.

Blueink · 27/08/2023 05:34

It’s difficult to know the killer’s motive when they haven’t confessed, but even then there is really no rational explanation and how could we trust LL on top of all the lies and manipulation?

We can only infer based on LLs actions, such as the attention seeking behaviour, fishing for sympathy etc.

Interesting to look the case of nurse Charles Cullen in the US, whose crimes followed him from hospital to hospital, as LL crimes followed her from her night to day shifts and stopped when she was taken off the unit.

In the end CC offered some sort of motive, but it didn’t really explain and his actions went beyond it. It’s unknown how much insight the killers of these type of crimes have, it’s obviously not rational and it’s abhorrently abnormal and a huge abuse of power.

Wintersgirl · 27/08/2023 11:03

It won’t make any difference, she’s still banged up until she dies. I thought about this today when I went to have my hair cut - she’ll never get another scalp massage or sit and chat to a stylist again - just one of many simple little pleasures we all take for granted that she’ll never experience again. I’d sooner be dead I think.

I was thinking the same, it will be the simple things that you miss, yesterday I nipped in to Sainsbury's and had a mooch, I then went and took the dogs for a walk in the woodland that's near my home, not earth shattering stuff by any means but if someone said to me you'll never be able to do things like this ever again I think I'd rather be dead too. Still, it's all her own doing...