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Original poster

Kevin Spacey

250 replies

Gotmygladragson · 26/07/2023 16:37

Just saw the not guilty verdict. I haven’t been following it closely but from the bits I have seen, I’m surprised. Was this what was expected?

OP posts:
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5
lking12 · 27/07/2023 08:25

newnamethanks · 27/07/2023 08:14

The burden of proof is not too high. If 3 of your neighbours, for instance, get together and accuse someone in your family of raping them, would you like to see that person convicted on their word? 17 years in prison for that kind of error. Proof, not gossip, is essential.

As I’ve said if the burden of proof was lowered I’d expect the sentencing to reflect that given the higher margin of error. But I’m harrassment/abuse cases which are they said/they said the criminal
burden of proof is unlikely to be met. I think that can be seen in the very low success rates of these type of cases. However if it was in the ‘balance of probabilities’ the outcome might have been very different. The latter burden of proof is applied to civil cases with no criminal sentencing and has been successful when criminal prosecutions haven’t. OJ Simpson was found guilty in a civil case not a criminal one. I feel like for victims a lower burden of proof with a compromise of a reduced sentence (community service and sexual offenders register only) might give more closure than people walking away ‘innocent.’

If the victims are multiple, not known to each other, geographically separate etc, I think it’s very likely the accusations are true but can’t be proven.

HRTQueen · 27/07/2023 08:26

VeniVidiWeeWee · 27/07/2023 01:04

Are you seriously suggesting that a group of 12 people can have their common sense overruled by some lwwyers rhetoric?

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Yes I am anyone can be manipulated. KS can buy the best legal team and he is also an actor through in some celeb friends and it’s quite easy to see why how people get pulled.

five of the jurors met with KS after a meet and greet done all with the press knowledge of course

LawnmowerBlues · 27/07/2023 08:31

TheUsualChaos · 27/07/2023 08:17

I'll eat my hat if he's innocent but as is so often the case, particularly in America it seems, money will get you out of any bother.

This case was tried at Southwark Crown Court, not America.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

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benfoldsfivefan · 27/07/2023 08:31

inigomontoyahwillcox · 27/07/2023 07:50

I do think he has probably acted inappropriately and creepily, possibly even used his position to attempt (or succeed?) to coerce people into doing what he wanted them to do.

Whether that crossed a line into criminality- well, it seems not. But I hope rather than using his experience as evidence he can behave how he likes and get away with it, he reevaluates his past behaviour and adjusts it accordingly.

Please give me an example of how Kevin Spacey acted inappropriately with someone? Were you there?

CringeLicious · 27/07/2023 08:32

lking12 · 27/07/2023 07:42

I think the burden of proof is far too high in these cases with word against word of course that’s not enough for a jury to convict.

I live in London and friends who are associated with the globe theatre, even I heard he was predatory before the allegations came out, I was not surprised to hear them!

And the guy who was recently released after doing 17 years for a rape he didn’t commit? Assuming he thought the burden of proof (no forensic evidence, just accusations) a little in the low side…
Or do you want to say ‘no smoke without fire’?

ALevelDisaster · 27/07/2023 08:35

It wasn’t just one person though it’s was tens of people and a pattern of behaviour. If the burden of proof was lower I’d expect the punishment to be less, I.e sign sexual offenders register but no custodial sentence.

There is so much to get into there. You seem to be following the no smoke without fire logic of a lot of other posters. Does a ‘pattern of behaviour’ add up to proving specific illegal acts took place? You can’t say, ‘Well, he definitely did a tonne of creepy but ultimately legal stuff so that’s enough to assume he must have done something illegal too. Just look at Harvey Weinstein!’

And the idea that the evidential bar for serious crimes is lowered in exchange for lighter punishment is terrible. Imposing the formal status of sex offender is totally unacceptable where this hasn’t been proven.

LawnmowerBlues · 27/07/2023 08:37

benfoldsfivefan · 27/07/2023 08:31

Please give me an example of how Kevin Spacey acted inappropriately with someone? Were you there?

Show quote history

Oh come on, she said "probably". And by his own admission, he has been in the habit of "making passes" at people frequently, which seems to involve physical touch and in a work context. Now, some people will have been fine with that (I'm sure he's had consensual encounters). But many people, especially in this day and age, would find that behaviour inappropriate and creepy.

He seems like a guy with a massive hole in his heart that he's trying compulsively to fill. It isn't going to make for appropriate behaviour. He basically sounds like a sex pest - whether criminal or not (jury says not).

lking12 · 27/07/2023 08:39

ALevelDisaster · 27/07/2023 08:35

It wasn’t just one person though it’s was tens of people and a pattern of behaviour. If the burden of proof was lower I’d expect the punishment to be less, I.e sign sexual offenders register but no custodial sentence.

There is so much to get into there. You seem to be following the no smoke without fire logic of a lot of other posters. Does a ‘pattern of behaviour’ add up to proving specific illegal acts took place? You can’t say, ‘Well, he definitely did a tonne of creepy but ultimately legal stuff so that’s enough to assume he must have done something illegal too. Just look at Harvey Weinstein!’

And the idea that the evidential bar for serious crimes is lowered in exchange for lighter punishment is terrible. Imposing the formal status of sex offender is totally unacceptable where this hasn’t been proven.

We can’t possibly know without hearing the evidence ourselves. You can’t know if he was innocent at all, or if he would be found not guilty in a civil case.

My own personal view is that I’d heard rumors about him from theatrical friends in London already before any public accusations and I trust them. In addition I have a general view the criminal burden of proof is too high in these type of cases.

EmmaGrundyForPM · 27/07/2023 08:43

Smokeebacon · 26/07/2023 17:17

When I lived in London I used to see him about with very young and very handsome men. I'm sure there was a power imbalance in his sexual relationships.

And you never saw older rich men out and about with beautiful young women?

Hoppinggreen · 27/07/2023 08:44

No idea what he has or hadn’t done but the bar to proving sexual assault etc can be very high as the chances are there were only 2 people there when it occurred.
Whatever the truth he’s not someone I would want hanging around my teenage son

LindorDoubleChoc · 27/07/2023 08:45

I agree that the burden of proof is too high in sexual assault cases. On the one hand we require absolute concrete proof, otoh, sexual abuse and assault tends to happen in private so there are no witnesses. It's really difficult and unsatisfactory and, on balance, I believe way too many guilty people get away with it. I feel that KS is probably one of these.

Willmafrockfit · 27/07/2023 08:49

you heard rumours ?
i imagine the rumours snowballed

skippy67 · 27/07/2023 08:53

TheUsualChaos · 27/07/2023 08:17

I'll eat my hat if he's innocent but as is so often the case, particularly in America it seems, money will get you out of any bother.

The case was tried here in London, not America.

Inkanta · 27/07/2023 08:58

He basically sounds like a sex pest - whether criminal or not (jury says not)

Yes.

benfoldsfivefan · 27/07/2023 09:02

Inkanta · 27/07/2023 08:58

He basically sounds like a sex pest - whether criminal or not (jury says not)

Yes.

No, he sounds like a man with a high and healthy sex drive who likes much younger men. Like I said yesterday, who gives a shit?

AutumnCrow · 27/07/2023 09:04

benfoldsfivefan · 27/07/2023 09:02

No, he sounds like a man with a high and healthy sex drive who likes much younger men. Like I said yesterday, who gives a shit?

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Well, presumably the young men who feel that they are victims.

HPOV · 27/07/2023 09:07

I’m surprised. Did some work at the Old Vic when he was there and was told by a member of staff whilst being shown around “you don’t need to worry about Kevin, he just likes the boys…”

Tomeeornottomee · 27/07/2023 09:08

There's a difference between propositioning someone and sexually assaulting someone. I think KS has form for coming on to people, but backing off when they say no...hence the not guilty verdict.

ThatshallotBaby · 27/07/2023 09:12

I think he wasn’t keen on the word no.

benfoldsfivefan · 27/07/2023 09:17

AutumnCrow · 27/07/2023 09:04

Well, presumably the young men who feel that they are victims.

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Alternatively, a view is that they’re not victims, are liars and only after a financial settlement.

Inkanta · 27/07/2023 09:19

benfoldsfivefan · 27/07/2023 09:17

Alternatively, a view is that they’re not victims, are liars and only after a financial settlement.

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I don't think so.

AutumnCrow · 27/07/2023 09:21

benfoldsfivefan · 27/07/2023 09:17

Alternatively, a view is that they’re not victims, are liars and only after a financial settlement.

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And they may succeed in a civil action.

LizzieSiddal · 27/07/2023 09:22

No, he sounds like a man with a high and healthy sex drive who likes much younger men. Like I said yesterday, who gives a shit?

There’s nothing healthy about wanting sex with “much younger men”. It’s repulsive. And I’d say the same if it was much younger women.

WeetabixTowels · 27/07/2023 09:23

WeAreTheHeroes · 27/07/2023 05:31

An inherent bias towards what exactly?

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Juries are regular people.

Regular people who live in a patriarchy and culture of celebrity adoration.

We all have an inherent bias to believe powerful white men.

SisterMaryLoquacious · 27/07/2023 09:23

Or they genuinely felt assaulted but he genuinely thought his physical approaches were welcome.

It's (theoretically) quite possible for both sides in a sexual assault or rape case to be telling the truth - if so it should result in a not guilty verdict.

But none of this means that his various employers were wrong to sack him - lots of non-criminal behaviours, including many things that could be described as "flirting", are unacceptable in the workplace.