Kevin Spacey

[Gotmygladragson]

Just saw the not guilty verdict. I haven’t been following it closely but from the bits I have seen, I’m surprised. Was this what was expected?

They didn’t find him innocent.

Not guilty does NOT mean a declaration of innocence. They may well have though he’s guilty but there’s enough doubt from a legal perspective that they are obliged to acquit.

As an aside - why wouldn’t some jurors be thick?

@WeetabixTowels You are correct that someone is found not guilty. As the case could not be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

Hence why I will sometimes say someone was found not guilty, if my opinion based on what I have read makes me think they would be convicted in a civil case, where balance of probabilities is the test.

Evidence is what puts people away. You can't vote guilty if there is no evidence to prove that it happened at that moment.

There’s no evidence I was sexually abused as a child other than my word. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

That's how the law works words don't build a case evidence does. The accusers lawyer's should have gathered more evidence before taking the case to court. I remember watching a programme about rape victims struggling to even get their cases to court and the same was said to them there needs to be evidence. People do make false accusations that get to court and then the accuser is up on a charge for lying.

That's awful what happened to you my dad was abused when he was a child. I hope you are at peace now with your past and can forgive those who were meant to be watching you when it happened.

The other issue is that the then 14YO's allegations were found not to be credible in court.

I have no clue whether Stacey has been been a predator, a sleaze or merely a flirt but it's notable that none of the allegations against in him have succeed, even in civil court.

That doesn't mean some aren't true but several that evaporated under scrutiny do seem to be motivated by the desire for attention/money.

But there rarely is evidence of sexual assault / rape when the only two present were the victim and the accused.

It’s virtually impossible to bring enough evidence to convict. Which means time and time again, rapists and those who do sexually assault, walk free.

There is an award winning play doing the rounds on exactly this topic at the moment - Prima Facie. It’s about a skilled defence lawyer who’s enabled many accused of rape/sexual assault to walk free. Then she is raped and has to go to court. I won’t spoil it - but I’m sure you can guess the outcome.

Victims of rape and sexual assault almost never see justice.

For most people - certainly many on this thread - that’s just tough. They’re collateral damage, and our legal system must not be questioned (Prima Facie does exactly this).

Oh, and by the way, in case you didn’t know - it’s much worse to be accused of sexual assault / rape, than it is to be sexually assaulted / rape. Our sympathy must always default to the poor person accused, and the impact of all of this on his their life.

what about that poor man who was in prison for 17 years before he could be released,
a jury committed him to jail for a crime he didnt commit. they didnt have the forensic knowledge

For most people - certainly many on this thread - that’s just tough. They’re collateral damage, and our legal system must not be questioned (Prima Facie does exactly this).

It’s not ‘just tough’. It’s possible to recognise that one of the terrible things about these crimes is that victims don’t get justice and to empathise with that without also agreeing that it’s acceptable to lower the burden of proof for conviction.

I don’t think the legal system mustn’t be questioned, but I think the burden of proof for criminal offences is right. I don’t think it’s justice to label individuals as criminal, with all the consequences that brings, without being pretty damn sure they are.

I just googled him DNA proved it wasn't him can you imagine the amount of people who were wrongly convicted back in the day before DNA testing, mobile phones and cameras. Not just rape any crime.

Yes, tragic for him.

But I also feel equally sorry for the vast swathes of victims who never see justice.

People (I say ‘people’ but we know who I mean) have a green light to assault and rape with impunity because they know they can get away with it.

Story about the jurors, for what it's worth

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12352335/Starstruck-High-Court-jurors-queued-Kevin-Spacey-meet-greet-clearing-sexually-assaulting-four-men-witnesses-reveal.html

You can drop this URL into an archive website if you can’t read it by turning on airplane mode

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kevin-spacey-film-actor-trial-sexual-assault-2023-c0v36xmxx

Pretty sure I've read somewhere that they weren't jurors at all.

Spacey seems to be sleazy, pushy, and manipulative, especially to very young men. Either there is no evidence or the stuff he did is considered acceptable, legally at least, in the same way that low level sexual intimidation and groping of girls and women seems to be not just accepted but expected. I think he is disgusting, but then so many men are.

Yes, I think people forget about all the pressures that stars in the public eye often face. They need to relieve their stresses so that their talent shines through and it is their foibles that make them great.

what are the lives of a few menials? They are just foils for the mind of greatness, to be used and cast aside like empty vessels when ‘talent’ has no need for them. Who remembers the millions of men, women and children slaughtered to make Alexander Great? Likewise why remember the tawdry minions that service a great actor like Spacey?

People are imperfect and their recollections are also tarred by trauma.

my 15 year old daughter was squashed in a crowded train years ago and thought that someone was inappropriately prodding her with his penis. When she got off, she found that someone had ejaculated on her school blazer. She informed the station staff who contacted the police. They had video evidence and most of the carriage were people who always travelled on the train. She could not identify the man despite turning around and staring at him several times during the incident. No one came forward despite the efforts of the police and It happening in a very public place. The police dropped the charges after a period of time and despite the police being very sympathetic, the man was never prosecuted.

My daughter was in shock and for her final year at school she took the bus all the way despite it taking 45 minutes longer. I had to take her to school and then head to work afterwards, making my life more difficult. We burnt the wool blazer and all her uniform and bought another one. We wish we didn’t waste so much time pursuing this matter as it led to sleepless nights and increased trauma for myself and my daughter. It lasted almost a year.

this is what happens. Most men get away with this behaviour and it affects the victims who usually have no redress.

So before you ask why people do not go straight to the police, you have one reason why.

@MadeleineMummy

I am very sorry to hear what your daughter went through, it is unacceptable and dreadful.

Thanks. This is almost a distant memory. My daughter and I have not talked about it for years and I don’t know why I just thought of it now.

I am really sarcastic when I hear all the apologists for bad behaviour in men and the victim blaming and shaming.

Sexual assault is a personal and quite demeaning incident and usually most people (men and women) just go home have a shower and move on with their lives.

@MadeleineMummy Your daughter is brave and this will hopefully stay on his file for a long time so if it ever happened again the police will have no choice but to take the matter further. I think it's disgusting how these people get away with it with no consequences. They think they have a right.

I wonder if anyone on this thread is watching the C4 documentary? It’s absolutely chilling.

Haven’t bothered to watch the documentary, but I’m hoping he returns to doing more acting, and good on Stephen Fry and others for publicly backing him:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cnd6d7y11nwo.amp

i agree @benfoldsfivefan

Have only watched the first half so far but I believe all the men featured.

Too many men with too similar stories to be anything but true. And KS seems very calculating as to not do anything that he couldn't shrug off (I think to himself as well as others) as just being a bit too 'touchy-feely'.

But come on, he's still a sleaze and it's still illegal sexual assault.

Likely his childhood was a big factor (and the family genetics), but there's no getting away from the fact that he seems pretty fucked up.

I suggest anyone still defending him watches the documentary.

Stephen Fry: "Clumsy and inappropriate..." 🤮 That's a defence?! Oh yes, sorry, my hand just accidentally fell onto your penis.