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BBC Presenter and yet more allegations

1000 replies

friendlycat · 11/07/2023 23:28

It would appear that the front page of tomorrow’s The Sun has further allegations about messages with a new 17 year old. Creepy hearts etc

Scrolling through Sky news and seeing front pages of the papers. This appears bottom right on The Sun front page.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
lemmein · 12/07/2023 16:32

*Yes I name changed for this thread because I was going to talk about some relevant personal stuff, but have decided against it.

Feel free to check with HQ how long I have been on the site ofc.*

Sure! 😅

pintery · 12/07/2023 16:34

lemmein · 12/07/2023 16:32

*Yes I name changed for this thread because I was going to talk about some relevant personal stuff, but have decided against it.

Feel free to check with HQ how long I have been on the site ofc.*

Sure! 😅

It's easy to check with HQ whether I am a regular or not, if it matters to you 🤷‍♀️

3BSHKATS · 12/07/2023 16:38

Calliecaterpillar · 12/07/2023 16:28

Some people clearly have very blessed lives not to have come across situations in which you GO to the police but the police have their hands tied unless you provide more than what you can to be able to investigate and build a case that would stand any chance of a prosecution

Literally this, my own mother read private emails printed them out and shared them with the whole family, without my consent, which then prejudiced my divorce case. This is illegal behaviour. Do we think the police acted?
Not interested.
This is somebody who works in a hospital and has access to peoples private medical information.

But breaching the trust of their own family was considered not worthy of police time.

The threshold for police intervention is higher than people would commonly believe.

RedToothBrush · 12/07/2023 16:39

friendlycat · 12/07/2023 16:11

There are many complexities of this situation, firstly that the parents approached The Sun newspaper and presented them with whatever their evidence is.

Secondly, that it relates to a senior TV Presenter employed by the BBC a public funded corporation. With added complications of historical mishandling of situations with other employees.

Thirdly, that said employee has a role within the BBC where gravitas and a high level of professionalism is a requirement of the job. Due to the nature of his role he is open to a level of scrutiny (fairly or not) that others say presenting "Homes Under the Hammer" or "Saturday Kitchen" would not have levied on them. (Accepting though that 'lesser' presenters still have a duty of how they conduct themselves when employed by the BBC.)

Lastly, he may not actually have done anything actually illegal. But many find his behaviour extremely sleazy and sordid and unbefitting of his status. Trawling whatever sites he uses to make contact with youngsters forty years plus his junior and requesting and sharing sexual images is at best extremely seedy.

The fact that whatever evidence was presented to The Sun in the first place then set off this roller coaster ride.

I feel sorry for his family, and also his colleagues having to front all of this.
He made choices of his own activities. He could have made other choices such as recognising his sexuality (which in this day and age would have been fine), ending his marriage and perhaps looking for a different relationship of equals rather than trawling for much younger assumed men on the internet.

If he was a Pop Star I wouldn't "judge" as much as it would be my choice whether I actively purchase their music in whatever format. But I have no choice of paying for the BBC Licence fee. I would like people who have senior positions within that corporation to behave in an appropriate manner, call me old fashioned.

Agree.

I think in terms of a BBC presenter having a relationship / contact with a 17 year old who says there is no problem - there still remains an issue for the BBC.

As someone says upthread hindsight is a thing and someone may feel they weren't exploited abused when in that relationship or immediately afterwards because well, it's deeply difficult and upsetting to admit that to yourself.

With time you may well see the relationship as not being having had your proper consent. How many threads are there on MN from women who say things like 'oh I gave him mixed messages' or 'i said no but he persisted and eventually I let him' etc etc which do actually met the definition of rape.

I am not remotely suggesting there has been a rape here. There is no evidence of that. The point here is about not necessarily understanding the principles of being under undue influence and pressure to do X, y and z and being conditioned to believe that it was 'your fault' in some way.

So the problem for the BBC then becomes about risk. The risk that in ten years time this person won't come and sue them for Mr Presenter abusing them. The parents say there is an issue. The young person says there isn't. Even if nothing follows through, can the BBC take the risk? They may well establish that Mr Presenter has acted inappropriately and outside their guidelines. Can they risk keeping them if they can demonstrate but not criminality - at this point? There isn't a binary situation here. Someone may over time realise the control someone else had over them that they didn't realise previously.

People in positions of power and responsibility need to understand that they have to behave to higher standards whilst in those roles in part because of that. Standards that may be higher than are expected of the general public.

However I would say that a person in a position of authority who is 60 messaging young people in their teens or twenties would be problematic in many contexts for the general public. It's not something that is exclusive to high profile presenters. It is an expectation for many 'normal' walks of life. It would be even more problematic if that included asking for photos or being abusive. For example teachers or scout leaders couldn't do this. To see someone at the BBC acting in a way below the standards they are expected to uphold is not cool. It raises red flag that people have been taught to identify for good reason to protect. This isn't some sort of 'morality police' on a witch-hunt. It's standard protocol and why organisations have established these rules in the first place. It's effectively 'recognised industry standard safeguarding'. Not a la la measure dreamt up by individuals to burn people at the stake.

It's very much about power dynamics. Age is one aspect of that, occupation is another, position of trust another. Where you have multiples of these the power dynamics accumulating the weight of responsibility grows and in turn the level of expectations of transparent honest and 'good' behaviour rises.

This guy isn't an idiot. He knows all this stuff. And chose to ignore it. He will have been given training to protect himself and to be mindful of the potential impact on others. And he's still sent messages. THAT'S part of the problem. The fact he thought it was ok to do that or he thought he could get away with it. He KNOWS this would leave him exposed.

Above all else, sending the expletive laden abusive messages is his downfall at this point. Cos power.

Calliecaterpillar · 12/07/2023 16:39

I have no idea what the Sun has or hasn't seen but they ran with the story

Yeah they're a shitty rag but they aren't going to risk printing a story like this without any basis. They've seen enough to go to print but not enough to go to print beyond what they have printed

The most solid thing atm is the second accuser bc the BBC has reported themselves he sent "threatening" communications from his mobile number and they have confirmed it

Equally the Sun probably has a zillion people going with fake stories to them constantly- ones which go to print have something to them. They may sensationalise but they clearly believe from what they've seen that they're not targeting an innocent man

lemmein · 12/07/2023 16:42

Excellent post @RedToothBrush

Juanmartinez · 12/07/2023 16:43

lemmein · 12/07/2023 16:26

They did go to the police 🙄

If the police said they couldn't help, where else are you supposed to go?

DaisyQuakeJohnson · 12/07/2023 16:49

This isn't a smear campaign against the BBC. The BBC has acknowledged the failures in their reporting system. They've suspended the presenter. They've been transparent about the second young person who contacted them and about the abusive and threatening messages sent by the presenter. Yy the BBC's initial response was poor but ironically since the story broke publicly, the BBC has reacted speedily and transparently.

It's not the BBC's fault if a presenter abused his position. It's not the BBC's fault if a husband betrayed his wife and family (if applicable). It's not the BBC's fault if the presenter asked for explicit photos from someone underage (if applicable). It's not the BBC's fault if the presenter sent malicious communications and threats (both of which are also illegal btw) when they thought they might be exposed. All of that is the responsibility of the presenter. It's on him.

He took risks. He possibly broke the law. He used the 'fame' granted to him from his position in the BBC to approach young people. And now he's 'very angry' that he's getting called out. But that access to people, to a platform, to 'credibility' that he was given from his job is dependent on behaviour that does not bring the organisation into disrepute. On behaviour that doesn't flirt with illegality. On behaviour that doesn't use his position to make approaches to the public that would likely be rebuffed if his public persona did not create a false sense of security.

It's not the BBC that is at fault. It's the presenter.

And it's the apologists crawling out of the woodwork to try to derail any discussions (how many derails have we had on here now? GO; The Sun; Boris; fgs even Markle!). Those people who are devoting lots of energy to spread disinformation to try to make this everyone else's fault but the older man who prioritised his sexual kinks over everything else. Well, it doesn't work. All they are doing is exposing themselves.

bellac11 · 12/07/2023 16:50

Calliecaterpillar · 12/07/2023 16:09

@bellac11 they can ofc and have a right to say it

But society has a duty to recognise that in grooming we cannot take the word of someone potentially exploited as true in that it has not harmed them

There's a duty morally with people who are able to see it - to not say "they say it's fine so let it be"

Sometimes people cannot safeguard themselves and need other members of society to do it for them bc they are too vulnerable to have that capacity

Yes thats true, and where people have been assessed as not having capacity, decisions for them get made by others, both as children and as adults

But in a person who does have capacity - what is your suggestion about how to proceed?

RedToothBrush · 12/07/2023 16:52

bitnervousaboutthis · 12/07/2023 16:28

The parents did go to the police who said it wasn't a police matter, then they complained to the BBC (the presenter's employer) who didn't action it straight away and then they went to the press.

It might not be a criminal matter.

It doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

It doesn't mean the BBC handled it right.

If you have a newspaper willing to publish, they still have to consider the legal implications of publication. They may well have an axe to grind. But they will have to be able to construct an argument about why it's in the public interest to go ahead with that story and they have reasonable evidence to believe what they have been told.

If they go after some financially well off, they have to have a higher threshold of certainty that what they are saying has a point.

What is the public interest here?

Is it about a criminal act? Possibly but it needs a very high level of proof.
Is it about the BBC safeguarding systems failing? Or training being inadequate?
Or poor BBC complaints protocol?
Or a lack of proper understanding of what grooming entails by various parties (potentially police, BBC and young person).
Or licence fee money paying presenters too much - so they spend it on 'cocaine and hookers'?
Or an expectation of the public for the BBC and it's employees to be 'above reproach'?
Or even a lingering trust issue post Saville?

Tbh any of the above questions is relevant here. It isn't necessarily about the individual in question.

But whilst there is such a focus on the who, we don't look at the underlying questions which are perhaps more important.

How do you stop 'the next Saville' if you don't have this structure? That's the ultimate question as part of this discussion.

And we NEED this discussion.

bellac11 · 12/07/2023 16:55

3BSHKATS · 12/07/2023 16:38

Literally this, my own mother read private emails printed them out and shared them with the whole family, without my consent, which then prejudiced my divorce case. This is illegal behaviour. Do we think the police acted?
Not interested.
This is somebody who works in a hospital and has access to peoples private medical information.

But breaching the trust of their own family was considered not worthy of police time.

The threshold for police intervention is higher than people would commonly believe.

Is that because it was a civil matter, not a criminal matter?

(the taking of your private information?)

drpet49 · 12/07/2023 16:55

3BSHKATS · 12/07/2023 16:38

Literally this, my own mother read private emails printed them out and shared them with the whole family, without my consent, which then prejudiced my divorce case. This is illegal behaviour. Do we think the police acted?
Not interested.
This is somebody who works in a hospital and has access to peoples private medical information.

But breaching the trust of their own family was considered not worthy of police time.

The threshold for police intervention is higher than people would commonly believe.

Seeing how understaffed the police are I’m glad they didn’t waste time investigating this.

user01082312345 · 12/07/2023 16:58

@3BSHKATS that is not a criminal case! You would have had to take your mother through the civil courts. The police believe it or not have far bigger fish to fry.

lemmein · 12/07/2023 16:58

If the police said they couldn't help, where else are you supposed to go?

Well speaking from experience when the police said they couldn't do anything about the gang grooming my DD I took action myself and made their lives a misery for months. They eventually went away, probably moved onto someone else's poor DD. No police charges were ever brought.

I can totally understand why a desperate parent would go to the press. They wanted this man to stop supplying their child with funds for drugs - it's not a huge ask is it?

It's the most frustrating experience ever dealing with services who really don't give a shit. It honestly was the worst time of our lives. I did things I never thought I'd do out of sheer desperation to protect my daughter.

I can't imagine seeing my DDs abusers presenting on tv everyday pretending to be decent men - if I was their mum I would've hounded the fucker.

3BSHKATS · 12/07/2023 16:58

drpet49 · 12/07/2023 16:55

Seeing how understaffed the police are I’m glad they didn’t waste time investigating this.

Well @drpet49 you might be, let’s hope she doesn’t share your private medical details with anybody, given how untrustworthy she’s proven to be.

I am entitled to the protection of the law as much as anybody else when it’s been broken, and I am a victim of a criminal.

bellac11 · 12/07/2023 17:01

Calliecaterpillar · 12/07/2023 16:28

Some people clearly have very blessed lives not to have come across situations in which you GO to the police but the police have their hands tied unless you provide more than what you can to be able to investigate and build a case that would stand any chance of a prosecution

Much of my work involves this unfortunately

The issue is one of thresholds of evidence, consent, disclosures, capacity and 'unwise choices'

So there are lots of grey areas where something might be unwise, undesirable, unpleasant but not illegal

There might be something illegal but without any evidence/victim report to do anything about it

There might be something both unpleasant and illegal AND without any evidence to take action by authorities or anyone else.

There might be situations where a 3rd party has seen some of the evidence, but it doesnt belong to them (screenshots/texts/emails whatever) and so their hearsay evidence or information cannot be used to progress or open an investigation.

3BSHKATS · 12/07/2023 17:01

user01082312345 · 12/07/2023 16:58

@3BSHKATS that is not a criminal case! You would have had to take your mother through the civil courts. The police believe it or not have far bigger fish to fry.

@oldblighty27 it was contempt of court and carries a prison sentence.

Catpuss66 · 12/07/2023 17:01

SerafinasGoose · 12/07/2023 13:50

Oh, yes, they were.

And the accusations were upheld in court.

The judgement was based on lies, he was not then allowed to appeal. Wonder dirt what the Sun had on the judge. There was a petition set up by a barrister the trial was fundamentally unfair as it was proven that she lied in the US trial. The Sun printed her lies.

Lizzie888 · 12/07/2023 17:03

Does ANYONE think this guy is ever going to work in tv again. I think not!

RedToothBrush · 12/07/2023 17:04

DaisyQuakeJohnson · 12/07/2023 16:49

This isn't a smear campaign against the BBC. The BBC has acknowledged the failures in their reporting system. They've suspended the presenter. They've been transparent about the second young person who contacted them and about the abusive and threatening messages sent by the presenter. Yy the BBC's initial response was poor but ironically since the story broke publicly, the BBC has reacted speedily and transparently.

It's not the BBC's fault if a presenter abused his position. It's not the BBC's fault if a husband betrayed his wife and family (if applicable). It's not the BBC's fault if the presenter asked for explicit photos from someone underage (if applicable). It's not the BBC's fault if the presenter sent malicious communications and threats (both of which are also illegal btw) when they thought they might be exposed. All of that is the responsibility of the presenter. It's on him.

He took risks. He possibly broke the law. He used the 'fame' granted to him from his position in the BBC to approach young people. And now he's 'very angry' that he's getting called out. But that access to people, to a platform, to 'credibility' that he was given from his job is dependent on behaviour that does not bring the organisation into disrepute. On behaviour that doesn't flirt with illegality. On behaviour that doesn't use his position to make approaches to the public that would likely be rebuffed if his public persona did not create a false sense of security.

It's not the BBC that is at fault. It's the presenter.

And it's the apologists crawling out of the woodwork to try to derail any discussions (how many derails have we had on here now? GO; The Sun; Boris; fgs even Markle!). Those people who are devoting lots of energy to spread disinformation to try to make this everyone else's fault but the older man who prioritised his sexual kinks over everything else. Well, it doesn't work. All they are doing is exposing themselves.

Quite. Though I do think there may be failings with the BBC on this which need to be tackled and acknowledged as part of the discussion too.

The question is always 'how do you stop the next Saville?' And there's are various steps within that framework - which people doing minor things wrong may fall foul of (quite rightly I might add).

The framework should always be about teaching people to understand behaviour which is problematic and making 'good choices'. That might seem moralistic and petty at low levels but it's all within the framework of Stopping The Next Big One.

Where this guy fits in this framework in terms of the level of red flags he raises, I'm not going to cast judgement on. BUT he has definitely fucked up and triggered a tripwire in this framework which he is educated in. And there MUST be consequences to that. Because if there isn't you end up saying that it's just fine for older blokes in positions of power to be randomly contacting people who could be vulnerable to abuses of power.

Cos that's how safeguarding works. It's about stopping the little things which are questionable to prevent the big obvious abuse.

bellac11 · 12/07/2023 17:05

3BSHKATS · 12/07/2023 17:01

@oldblighty27 it was contempt of court and carries a prison sentence.

Via civil mechanisms surely?

What did the court say as normally they take their own actions

Blossomtoes · 12/07/2023 17:08

Lizzie888 · 12/07/2023 17:03

Does ANYONE think this guy is ever going to work in tv again. I think not!

No, of course not. His career and reputation are both gone. At best he’ll turn to print journalism under a pseudonym. I imagine his lawyers are currently in negotiation with the BBC’s to get him a fat settlement in exchange for resigning and it wouldn’t surprise me if he takes The Sun and possibly the parents of YP1 to the cleaners.

RedToothBrush · 12/07/2023 17:11

Blossomtoes · 12/07/2023 17:08

No, of course not. His career and reputation are both gone. At best he’ll turn to print journalism under a pseudonym. I imagine his lawyers are currently in negotiation with the BBC’s to get him a fat settlement in exchange for resigning and it wouldn’t surprise me if he takes The Sun and possibly the parents of YP1 to the cleaners.

Why would the BBC settle if he's in breach of contract for abusive messages?

Therein lies his problem.

The BBC can't be seen to give an abuser an easy ride unfortunately either as that in itself brings them into disrepute.

bellac11 · 12/07/2023 17:12

Lizzie888 · 12/07/2023 17:03

Does ANYONE think this guy is ever going to work in tv again. I think not!

No of course not!!

I said this a couple of days ago, he's finished of course

Blossomtoes · 12/07/2023 17:14

Why would the BBC settle if he's in breach of contract for abusive messages?

Why do disgraced MPs get loss of job compensation? He’s been around the Beeb a very long time, he knows where the bodies are buried. And I bet there are a lot of them.

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