MISSING TITAN SUB - THREAD 5

[tortoishelll]

Thread 5 - a continuation.

My heart aches for those poor men and their families. 💔😔

What @Saschka said

Exactly that. I scuba and ski with my teenage sons. I don't go below 10/11m with them and I don't go off-piste with them.

The rich don't use the NHS or state-run schools, yet their taxes support these structures. They put more into public services than the people use them do, yet the former are derided and sneered at.

I laughed at that and 'time delay' 😅
Thanks @placemats.

I think we're back on topic with that at least.

Throughout history, humans have created subsets of other people who it is acceptable, fashionable and uniting to publicly deride, mock, dismiss their opinions and valorous and minimise their deaths.
The target group might change. The human behaviour remains the same.

You’re not cool, edgy or thoughtful. You’re a throwback from the Middle Ages.

And to be clear, I’m not suggesting anyone on the sub “deserved” to die, and I am certainly not gloating. Just saying that the decision-making was lacking.

You do wonder about how clear the participants were about the risks - I have no idea how you get yourself aboard these expeditions, or what marketing they were given. If you sign up for an Everest trip, everyone knows there is a not insignificant chance of dying. But perhaps the Titan was sold as a perfectly safe, routine trip down to the wreck - after all, James Cameron has been 33 times so how risky can it be? I know there was a waiver, but I have also known extreme sports instructors handwave away those waivers as “boring legal stuff we have to say”.

Just don’t climb into it 🤣

If it starts taking on water, flee!

If you hear a slight cracking, also flee

why was TokyoStories post deleted?

It was just a joke. Is MNHQ seriously policing what humour is or is not acceptable.

The guidelines say

We do have a few forum rules to make sure we keep Talk a good place to hang out:

• No personal attacks
• No posts that break the law, including hate speech of any kind
• No trolling, misleading or deliberately inflammatory behaviour
• No trollhunting
• No spamming
• No multiple accounts

We'll remove posts we consider to contain personal attacks, to break the law and/or to be obscene, racist, sexist, disablist, ageist, homophobic or transphobic, once they are brought to our attention. We will also delete any posts that we think are just seriously unpleasant (please note that any subsequent posts repeating the words in the deleted post may be removed also).

@TokyoStories post was none of these. the only possible category would be 'just seriously unpleasant' but it obviously wasn't.

I'm actually shocked at that level of censorship. It's just a black humour joke (of questionable taste if you are highly sensitive) but not so bad as to warrant censorship.

@SirQuintusAureliusMaximus - OMG, I’ve just read through that Twitter feed, it’s truly shocking how this company was ever allowed to operate!

I wonder how many of the folk that criticise the billionaires, do the lottery? Bet if they won a million they wouldn't give it all away.

Oh no, someone reported Tokyo's post? They could explain why if they're around. I must have missed it (working from home, or supposed to be).

When MH370 disappeared I lurked on a pilot chat site (PPRuNE). Very interesting and informative.

And Marteenie you may wish to doff your cap to these billionaire 'philantrophists' but I very doubt they would care two straws about you or funding scholarships for people like you. If he was a genuine philantrophists he wouldn't still be a billionaire

Is there some reason why people come out with 'you realise they don't give two straws about you?' nonsense? of course they don't. They have no idea I , personally, exist. Like I had no idea these people existed until a few days ago.

Along, of course, with a made up rule about what he'd really with his money do if he was a genuine philanthropist.

The Flying Lady Doctor Twitter thread is fascinating and shocking. I can’t pretend I understood all the technical detail but she sets out very clearly how the Deepsea Challenger (the vessel which has been to the Mariana Trench - 11000 metres below the surface. Almost three times the depth that the Titan was attempting to descend to) was infinitely more sophisticated and more rigorously designed and tested than was the Titan.

In particular, I thought this bit was excellent. The engineers involved in the design and development of the Deepsea Challenger worked on the basis of ‘WHEN things go wrong…’ rather than ‘IF’, which seems like exactly the right philosophy when designing a vehicle which is going to carry humans into an extremely inhospitable and dangerous environment.

@waterlego

Yes - this bit I posted above I thought was really interesting - that they had a mechanism that would mean the sub would rise even if the pilot was unconcious.

When you read all of that it makes you realise exactly how dangerous undersea traval at that depth (Titanic and deeper to Challenger depth) and how multiple safety avenues are essential

The comms was another one - Titan had only one that had already been known to fail. Only one! It's mindblowing that anyone got in it at all.

I wonder how the people who have been in it down to the Titanic are feeling today. The details of the slack safety are so shocking that I think they risk getting some sort of post-event PTSD (probably not the right medical term) but some sort of after the event trauma as they come to terms with the fact that this could have been them.

Sorry but this is nonsense. His death wasn’t predictable, but it was preventable.

Everyone seems to be an expert on subs now but I’d bet that you wouldn’t have any real idea of the risks involved given that a supposedly reputable company has supposedly done all the right things. You’d know there was an element of risk, but never genuinely think that you could die from it.

and I bet that if anything happened to you on a ski trip, there would be people lining up to criticise you and your decision to take your children skiing. Because it’s also risky to do so.

Keeps us out of mischief, I suppose. 😅

I wonder how the people who have been in it down to the Titanic are feeling today. The details of the slack safety are so shocking that I think they risk getting some sort of post-event PTSD (probably not the right medical term) but some sort of after the event trauma as they come to terms with the fact that this could have been them.

Yes, I’ve thought about this a lot too. On the Oceangate promotional video there were several people talking about having been down in the sub. A number of them being people who work(ed) for the company. I wonder how they are all feeling now.

Not just the people who've been down but the people who were on the waiting mother ship above. Particularly those 'mission participants' who paid lots of money to be involved in the safety checks (as per the OceanGate website).

Particularly any who reassured frightened passengers that it was safe and they'd be ok. There's what the waivers say and what they were told which I bet are completely different.

I would never get into any sort of submersible at all because I have no wish to be under the sea. But had I such a wish, I am someone who could probably be quite easily swayed by engineers and experts telling me that something is safe. My understanding of physics is so poor that I have little chance of understanding any technical detail and ultimately have to just put my trust in people who say they know. This is why I still occasionally get on an aeroplane (albeit after a couple of Valium). Because I want to go somewhere, and I trust the experts who are telling me it is safe, even though I don’t truly understand how planes stay in the air.

The big difference in this example I suppose is that there is of course plenty of real life evidence in the form of tens of thousands of flights taking place every day without incident. But those who wanted to go on the Titan knew that it had made successful trips before. They probably also knew that submersibles had been to much greater depths so might have felt reassured that this was likely to be reasonably safe in comparison (if they had not compared the engineering involved in the Titan to the engineering involved in the subs that went deeper).

I’m not sure that post makes much sense but it makes sense in my head 😬

Black humour is a recognised way to cope psychologically with things which are overwhelming - whether they are difficult, frightening, or just too horrible to contemplate, black (aka gallows or graveyard) humour helps people deal with it. Laughing at something we fear takes the terror and distress out of it.

I wish people could just scroll on past posts they just don't like instead of taking it upon themselves to police the effing threads.

"Oh - someone involved/ a friend/ a person they once went to Bridlington with on a bus trip etc might be reading it and get upset" - trust me, if you are involved you wouldn't be scrolling through social media wanting to read all the sh*te that is posted. You'd have better things to do.

And if you did, and you didn't like what you read, then you could just turn away from the threads and not read them. Nobody is holding a gun to people's heads to force them to read Mumsnet.

There is too much censorship and policing of other people's speech these days. We all have differing opinions - live with it.