'I have no problem with trans women using women's toilets'

[CGF]

https://metro.co.uk/2023/06/19/i-have-no-issue-with-trans-women-using-the-loos-im-in-you-shouldnt-either-18978018/#metro-comments-container

Just seen this article and had to share - I can't believe the hateful language used by the author:

'High profile people, who I consider transphobic, like some politicians and former role models – who aren’t even worthy of the term ‘TERF’ (meaning trans exclusionary radical feminist) as it has ‘feminist’ in the name, and that they most certainly are not – have made it their mission to stoke a panic over trans people'.

No. I am a female bodied person - a TW can never be that. I call myself a woman because that's what we call adult human females. That's the only reason. That's not what TW think at all. We are not the same. Nothing in common. Nadda.

@grapehyacinthisactuallyblue you are posting like you've never heard of AGP.

I am a real person. I am personally affected FFS. I am a sexual assault survivor. There is no comfort in a system which allows men into my spaces. How utterly completely fucking shit of you to only care about the male people and not give one thought to the female people whose lives this has a negative effect on. My opinion is that you are not a caring person at all.

FFS I am finding your posts so horribly anti-women it's genuinely shocking. I do care about trans people. Me saying no men in my spaces is not evidence that I don't and anyone who suggests that is saying something truly nasty. I'd like to move to a place where people can be supported to properly free themselves from gender stereotypes and accept themselves as they are - without having to have expensive, painful surgery or take medication with life-long adverse side effects. That's got fuck all to do with men being in my loos.

Why is it that we have to preface everything by saying "I do care about trans people"?

Trans activists are not going around saying, "I do care about people with cervixes in prison" or "I do care about menstruators who have been sexually assaulted".

Nobody is requiring anybody to say, "I do care about homeless people" or "I do care about looked after children" or "I do care about people experiencing famine" or "I do care about people with disabilities".

I think most of us accept that there are many, many people in this world who are unfortunate in some way and lead difficult lives as a result, and that nobody has the emotional energy to meaningfully care about them all, or do something to accommodate or help them.

People might raise an eyebrow if you flat out said you DON'T care about those people, but beyond that, nobody is really expecting you to pretend you do.

And yet for some reason we can't even express our point of view in the women vs trans people debate without reassuring everyone that we do care about trans people, honestly!

I honestly think it's fine not to.

I agree.

tl; dr: transpeople should be treated like everyone else, except better.

@MargotBamborough

For me, I care about trans people because I'm a gender critical feminist. I think they are victims of the same gender constructs as female people are.

I think our way forward and theirs is ultimately together, we just need to find it.

My fury at the way TRAs have manipulated the acceptance of gender non conformity is not just because of its effect on women, but also because I think they are leading trans people / people who identify as trans up the garden path to a very bad place.

@grapehyacinthisactuallyblue you're talking bollocks. You don't understand the situation in any way and are just mumbling 'be kind'.

Women are telling you that it is unkind for transwomen to use women's spaces, prisons, races, toilets, awards...

So be kind to women and respect their space.

Come back when you've actually read up on the subject, seen these men who 'think like women' exposing themselves in women's toilets and taking women's trophies. Then explain why it's ok.

At the moment you sound very ignorant.

I think the reason I don't currently care - and that hasn't always been the case - is that the trans community isn't trying to find a compromise.

At the moment we have women expending huge amounts of emotional labour both defending our own reasons for wanting single sex spaces, sports, and even the vocabulary to describe ourselves as a sex class, and proposing potential solutions which would ensure respect for women's safety, dignity and equality, and also for trans people's. And what are trans activists doing? Rejecting it all out of hand.

Third spaces don't exist.

Then let's campaign for, fund and build them.

That will never happen.

Let's try.

It would take a long time and trans people have needs now.

Let's start now. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Even if those spaces did exist, it would force trans people to out themselves.

Your allies can use gender neutral spaces with you out of solidarity.

Why should we be forced into a third space? That's othering.

But you are "other". You are the opposite sex.

That's transphobic.

And on and on it goes.

The sad truth is that trans activists are not currently looking for any solution other than women just shutting up and giving them what they want.

It's not enough for trans people to safe spaces to pee and get changed in dignity. Those spaces must also have members of the opposite sex in them in order to validate their belief that they are the same, that they fit in. The feelings of those other people are irrelevant, they don't matter.

Many trans activists have openly said that even if third spaces did exist, they would not use them but would continue to use spaces for the opposite sex. So not only would it involve spending a huge amount of other people's money that we cannot really afford in order to create these spaces, it may well be wasted money unless it were accompanied by draconian new laws making it a criminal offence to use spaces for the opposite sex where a unisex space is also available.

I have now reached the point where I am unwilling to expend any more time or emotional energy trying to find a solution to a problem that they created and have no interest in resolving. Unfortunately I think the only way to force a sensible, productive discussion about how to protect the safety and dignity of genuine trans people is for women to rise up, en masse, and say, "Trans women are men and we do not want them in our single sex spaces and sports. We refuse. The answer is no. The answer will always be no. Now find another solution. We did not create this problem and it is not our problem to fix."

Trans women have been using our spaces for decades it is only an issue now as the ones who came before passed so we didnt know about it and would not have dreamed of waiving their tackle in the ladies changing room - they used the cubicles discretely. We didn't know they were there

What has changed is the barriers for entry. Trans women no longer have to pass as women - they can have a beard and still declare they are women and gain entry. This has meant that any man can do the same. They don't even have to try any more at least the previous generation of transgender people had to put some effort in.

All that means is that our boundaries have been violated for years without our consent.

Nobody ever asked us if we minded sharing our single sex spaces with members of the opposite sex.

Absolutely but it was never an issue as we didn't know about it.

Now they have scored a massive own goal by making it such a massive thing

Absolutely. You’re right, they’re totally making a rod for their own backs.

Listen, this isn't even about trans rights.

This is about most of us not even knowing another female who hasn't been assaulted, intimidated or hurt by a man in one way or another at some time in their lives. Until this huge threat is removed from society, women can't feel safe in a confined space like toilets. That's the end of it. Being forced to accept it? Yet another unsafe feeling, like noone cares about our safety.

If the stats of violence against women were hugely slashed to almost nothing then we do not have a problem, do we? So it's not even a trans issue, is it.

If you want to address the crux of the issue here - ongoing male violence against women - and help solve that, voice how utterly important this issue is, come up with great ways to address it, etc, etc, then I think you'll find women become more open to sharing a bathroom space.

As it is, the easiest option right now which is also the more realistic is to have a third bathroom - often there's a disabled & baby changing toilet in most places anyway - that one could be used.

No, sorry, @Outofthepark , I totally disagree. Yes, there is a practical issue around violence and the fact that men commit 99% of sexual assaults, etc. But even if no man had ever harmed a woman in the history of humanity, I believe that women still have the right to determine who has access to their spaces, and an inherent right to privacy and dignity. There are two separate issues.

And disabled people and mothers fought hard for accessible toilets and baby changing spaces. I don't agree with just giving those spaces up for trans people, who, unless they are also disabled, can actually use the toilets that already exist for people of their own sex, but don't want to.

Nobody suggested they should be given up, just shared.

That's pretty much the same thing though, isn't it?

Is a disabled person in a wheelchair expected to soil themselves waiting for all the able bodied blue haired pronoun people to finish using the one accessible toilet?

Plus, I wouldn't want someone like Katie Dolatowski in the space where I was changing my baby any more than I would want them in the women's toilets.

Who is usually changing a baby's nappy?

The mother.

Where does a mother who doesn't feel safe sharing an enclosed space such as a toilet with male people change her baby if that space is now shared with trans women?

At least if a man is in that space changing a baby's nappy you can be pretty sure he is there for the correct reason.

I have no issue with trans women using the same toilets ....
They aren't sharing my cubicle.

Good for you.

Perhaps then you could campaign for additional unisex spaces and use them out of solidarity with trans people.

It isn't a problem. We are all humans that piss and shit. They are separate cubicles. Noone is in danger

In theory I'm not against it, but that's an overly simplistic view without considering any of the implications. In reality I agree with the poster above and support that viewpoint.

Why are all these anti trans threads appearing everywhere all over the board ...can't they stick to the feminism boards. Which I have hidden because of this

Because this is an issue that affects women. Not just feminists.