Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

The head of the IOPC has been charged with raping a girl under 16

232 replies

Clymene · 16/06/2023 10:06

Michael Lockwood.

Fucking hell, the police are riddled with these allegedly rapey men

Post edited by MNHQ

OP posts:
AlisonDonut · 17/06/2023 08:26

If he is found guilty every single investigation he was involved with will need reopening. So quite a clear reason to protect him.

SamphireSandwich · 17/06/2023 08:27

Nightlystroll · 17/06/2023 08:11

Why would the police want to protect a member of the IOPC? The police hate the internal investigations officers. And, anyway, this guy is not and never has been a police officer. He worked in local govt.

These inaccurate claims are exactly why we need to wait til it's gone through court and accurate information is given and considered.

Why……you don’t think that the IOPC had been lenient and done favours for the police….. turned a blind eye? Because if they’re not, then why the hell is the establishment so racist, misogynistic and bullying?

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 17/06/2023 08:33

You have no idea what they go through- it's not in the news when they commit suicide or see their colleague hand chopped off by a machete..

So because the police face danger every day they get a free pass to behave how they like, is that the argument? because they deal with criminals they're free to act like that themselves and everyone should just go, 'poor things, they're under such stress, what's a few rapes and harassments and assaults?'

medianewbie · 17/06/2023 08:41

@ChateauMargaux
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

SamphireSandwich · 17/06/2023 08:41

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 17/06/2023 08:33

You have no idea what they go through- it's not in the news when they commit suicide or see their colleague hand chopped off by a machete..

So because the police face danger every day they get a free pass to behave how they like, is that the argument? because they deal with criminals they're free to act like that themselves and everyone should just go, 'poor things, they're under such stress, what's a few rapes and harassments and assaults?'

👏 👏 👏

You’ve hit the nail on the head!

No one is stopping them leaving, just trying to stop the awful entitled vile behaviour!

I used to say to my young children, in trouble find a police officer, I’d think twice about saying that to a daughter now.

The people that labelled Wayne the rapist and laughed about his “antics” what discipline did they face? Or was it just a chat? So many of them knew what was going on and turned a blind eye, if others did raise it, what discipline was given to the people they reported it too? For not taking action and therefore contributing to a woman’s murder.

JuneOsborne · 17/06/2023 08:41

So, if he's found guilty, will they review any of the decisions he's been responsible for around similar offences/allegations?

If not, how do they retain any sense of legitimacy?

SamphireSandwich · 17/06/2023 08:42

AlisonDonut · 17/06/2023 08:26

If he is found guilty every single investigation he was involved with will need reopening. So quite a clear reason to protect him.

Exactly! I expect a few officers are currently shitting themselves….. good!

Nightlystroll · 17/06/2023 08:49

SamphireSandwich · 17/06/2023 08:27

Why……you don’t think that the IOPC had been lenient and done favours for the police….. turned a blind eye? Because if they’re not, then why the hell is the establishment so racist, misogynistic and bullying?

The IOPC aren't police officers. Why would they do favours for the police? There's absolutely nothing for them to gain from that.

Why is the DG of the IOPC responsible for racism and misogyny that exists in police forces in Engand and Wales? That's like saying we have child social workers. Why are there crimes against children happening?

Neither the IOPC nor social workers can be held responsible for crimes that other people commit.

SamphireSandwich · 17/06/2023 08:51

Nightlystroll · 17/06/2023 08:49

The IOPC aren't police officers. Why would they do favours for the police? There's absolutely nothing for them to gain from that.

Why is the DG of the IOPC responsible for racism and misogyny that exists in police forces in Engand and Wales? That's like saying we have child social workers. Why are there crimes against children happening?

Neither the IOPC nor social workers can be held responsible for crimes that other people commit.

That’s already been asked and answered

medianewbie · 17/06/2023 08:53

@onefinemess. It was not my experience. The Police had the evidence of a contemporaneous to the abuse letter, written by Him to my Mother referencing fine details (oh yes...). But, apparently, Kent Police circa 2000 thought that 'my lifestyle' meant I'd would be an unreliable witness. (My own mother decided it would be more convenient to describe me as 'a slag' than admit to her neglect of her 4 y/o that allowed the abuse to continue). I didn't get the chance to ask a jury if they'd agree. I also worked in Scotland mid 1990s for a charity who provided support for young female survivors. NONE of them were taken seriously by the Police despite clear evidence. Only 1 case made it to court, & the victim was 'taken apart' there despite it being very clear cut.

FearTheWankingDead · 17/06/2023 08:57

BunnyBettChetwynnd · 16/06/2023 14:39

His victim was under 16.

I would say he ‘allegedly’ raped a child as that is what she was.

SamphireSandwich · 17/06/2023 08:59

medianewbie · 17/06/2023 08:53

@onefinemess. It was not my experience. The Police had the evidence of a contemporaneous to the abuse letter, written by Him to my Mother referencing fine details (oh yes...). But, apparently, Kent Police circa 2000 thought that 'my lifestyle' meant I'd would be an unreliable witness. (My own mother decided it would be more convenient to describe me as 'a slag' than admit to her neglect of her 4 y/o that allowed the abuse to continue). I didn't get the chance to ask a jury if they'd agree. I also worked in Scotland mid 1990s for a charity who provided support for young female survivors. NONE of them were taken seriously by the Police despite clear evidence. Only 1 case made it to court, & the victim was 'taken apart' there despite it being very clear cut.

Of course if your lifestyle was less than perfect, then you must’ve been asking for trouble,…not worth the police wasting their previous time for an abused female…

I’m sorry that you were yet another let down female, it’s beyond belief but sadly true.

NashvilleQueen · 17/06/2023 09:00

Unless the suspect has admitted the offence - you are going to have one word against the other, which usually for other offences will not result in a charge to court. But for rape offences, such a statement from the victim/survivor will be enough and CPS will charge.

The CPS do not apply a different test or threshold for rape offences. It is the full code test as with any other offence. It is recognised that word v word is more challenging but the nature of rape offences is such that there are often no witnesses. In consent/reasonable belief in consent cases there's no value in forensic

NashvilleQueen · 17/06/2023 09:05

Pressed send too soon

No value in forensic evidence either.

The CPS look for a consistent and coherent account from the complainant. They take account of what the suspect has said in deciding whether the full code test is met. Often they are left having to judge on two accounts where the balance lies. It's an incredibly difficult decision. Women have no incentive to lie and to put themselves through the awfulness of a rape trial but even so the strength of the evidence is tested at the point of charge.

Domestic abuse, controlling and coercive behaviour, stalking and harassment are also often word v word. The same threshold is applied and it's inaccurate to suggest that rape cases are waved through in a way that others wouldn't be.

medianewbie · 17/06/2023 09:15

@SamphireSandwich Thank you xxx

In my case, the abuser had admitted the offence, when brought in for questions by the Police. But when my character was questioned - because of what my own Mother said - the CPS wouldn't proceed. As I said, I worked with multiple young women & the test was absolutely not 'evidence'. It was whether the Police could be bothered. And, almost universally, they couldn't.
It's very difficult, when speaking to people seeking justice, knowing it isn't actually out there. That this man, IF found guilty, was able to stay in his position for so long, is part of the reason why. Its all an 'open secret'.

coffeedrinkers · 17/06/2023 09:21

Felix125 · 17/06/2023 06:28

ChateauMargaux
The convincing narrative comes in where the crime is an 'historic' one. That is to say it is outside the forensic window. So we only have the account of the victim/survivor. There will be no witnesses, no CCTV, DNA etc etc.

Unless the suspect has admitted the offence - you are going to have one word against the other, which usually for other offences will not result in a charge to court. But for rape offences, such a statement from the victim/survivor will be enough and CPS will charge.

"....If changes have been made and only 3% of reports are prosecuted, I would suggest that those changes are nowhere near sufficient...."
The changes that have been made include always believing the victim from the outset and not challenging their account, not putting any pressure on them to go through the medical procedure or go to court, have a specific SARC unit to attend for any medical procedure, have access to a number of support agencies, have an allocated ISVA, regular updates for the victim/survivor, early arrest of the suspect as they will also be in a forensic time window, use of dry cells and medical swabs from them, specific police teams to investigation (CID, DV, CAVA), specialist CPS lawyers for rape cases, specialised rape & sexual violence courts with a host of special measures (video links etc)

These are the changes that have been made - what other suggestions or measures would you like to see?

Said I wasn't going to comment again but just wanted to say again. Not my experience. Is was rape crisis uk that arranged my ISVA not the police. You've listed behaviour and procedures that SHOULD be in place but are definitely not always. I was told by a police officer that the ISVA service makes the police's job more difficult and they are a nuisance! This was within the last year. In the last 5 years I must have met with around 10 different officers, it's been 50/50 on what you get and unfortunately some are no different now then they were 30 years ago. It's really not good enough. I shouldn't have to be fighting the police for justice. Also the few I've met that have started of as apologetic to me (and trust me they owe me a big apology) are the same bunch who club together and get insanely defensive when you fight back. Not good enough by a long shot.

SamphireSandwich · 17/06/2023 09:51

medianewbie · 17/06/2023 09:15

@SamphireSandwich Thank you xxx

In my case, the abuser had admitted the offence, when brought in for questions by the Police. But when my character was questioned - because of what my own Mother said - the CPS wouldn't proceed. As I said, I worked with multiple young women & the test was absolutely not 'evidence'. It was whether the Police could be bothered. And, almost universally, they couldn't.
It's very difficult, when speaking to people seeking justice, knowing it isn't actually out there. That this man, IF found guilty, was able to stay in his position for so long, is part of the reason why. Its all an 'open secret'.

I hear you and I agree.

coffeedrinkers · 17/06/2023 10:01

@medianewbie We seem to have experienced the same disgusting behaviour and attitudes from the people meant to protect us. I believe and stand with you x

LifeIsPainHighness · 17/06/2023 10:02

My confidence in policing as currently at zero. The whole police community needs to do a hell of a lot to gain back public trust, especially trust from women.

medianewbie · 17/06/2023 10:16

@coffeedrinkers. Thank you x I am very sorry you have recently experienced similar. I'd hoped things had improved in 20 years but clearly, they haven't. (in fact with SM comments & the ubiquity of cameras on phones for abusive Police to share images I think things have actually got worse). I don't trust the Police now. I would advise my teens to come to me 1st, then we'd deal with the Police together, (they have ASD) regardless of the situation. I'd especially advise any female or otherwise vulnerable person to have a support/witness person with them when dealing with the Police. Police failure to properly prosecute sex crimes, and they way they treat victims as so much trash lays down further levels of abuse for the victims of such crimes, who are trying to survive & seek justice. Incompetence & corruption rightly makes the news. Women are disheartened from seeking justice. But that means yhe abusers - & their enablers - 'win'. We must not stop.

Brefugee · 17/06/2023 10:28

Jellyx · 16/06/2023 17:53

@Brefugee of course there's crap people in every job. It's not an inherent problem of the police - half of which are female..and plenty of minority members..

stop talking tripe. We have all seen with our own eyes that senior (very senior) police officers have said the force - all forces - are rife with sexism and misogyny. We KNOW because at least one person on this thread has described dispicable behaviour by police officers. We have all got friends and relatives who have experienced this first hand. How long ago was Stephen Lawrence murdered?

If you are on the side of the police (unthinkingly blindly supportive in your case) you should be welcoming criticism, welcoming the rooting out of all this behaviour and the prosecution of the "bad apples" to the fullest extent of the law.

In your adoration of all things plod you are just making yourself look daft. Of course it isn't all of them indulging in the worst behaviour. It is all of them who stand by and let it go, turn a blind eye, laugh at the jokes etc.

Brefugee · 17/06/2023 10:30

Jellyx · 16/06/2023 18:26

Stop slagging off the police as a whole. They're not all corrupt Shock

go on then. What's your connection to the police that you blindly think that the fact that some of them are ok (and bear in mind that turning a blind eye makes you a bad one)?

you're married to one. Or worse you are a female copper.

coffeedrinkers · 17/06/2023 10:34

@medianewbie Absolutely. I wouldn't want to put anyone off from reporting but I have no trust at all in the police. There are some amazing charities that will help anyone who needs support navigating the legal system. Rape crisis Uk, Womens Aid and The centre of women's justice are all brilliant examples of how victims should be treated and have been amazing in supporting me and it's because of them I am finally on track in getting justice.

Usernamenotavailab · 17/06/2023 11:01

medianewbie · 17/06/2023 09:15

@SamphireSandwich Thank you xxx

In my case, the abuser had admitted the offence, when brought in for questions by the Police. But when my character was questioned - because of what my own Mother said - the CPS wouldn't proceed. As I said, I worked with multiple young women & the test was absolutely not 'evidence'. It was whether the Police could be bothered. And, almost universally, they couldn't.
It's very difficult, when speaking to people seeking justice, knowing it isn't actually out there. That this man, IF found guilty, was able to stay in his position for so long, is part of the reason why. Its all an 'open secret'.

So the police investigated and prepared a case for the CPS.

it was the CPS who made the decision not to proceed.

how is that police universally not being bothered?

same as your post re. NO cases being investigated by police Scotland. Yet one made it to court, so must have been taken seriously.

the police are a separate entity to the CPS.

a friend is an officer and is leaving because nearly every investigation ends with the cps failing to prosecute. It’s frustrating for the “good apples” so they quit, and it becomes difficult to retain those who can maintain a new culture.

i don’t think it’s as simple as the police are shit. There’s a whole lot of issues in the adjacent fields- social services, cps, ambulance, mental health- which then ends up on the police’s doorstep and crime takes a back seat.

onefinemess · 17/06/2023 11:10

I've read all the posts so far. What people have to get their head around is that the police, CPS and the courts deal with law and its associated vagaries.

Knowing something has happened is one thing, but proving it happened is another thing. As I said before, virtually all offences in England and Wales must have some measure of evidence to suggest guilt in order for an individual to be charged and convicted. This is not the case with sexual offences. So, the question is then, how do you proceed with a fair trial when you are asking a jury to consider a case where there is no physical evidence to relate to?

We MUST assume a person is INNOCENT until proven guilty, otherwise we have a lynch-mob, not a justice system.

Stranger rapes are very rare, and when they do happen there is usually ample physical evidence for a jury to consider. In the vast majority of cases of sexual assaults reported to police, the alleged victim and alleged offender are known to each other, meaning there no physical evidence that can be presented to a jury.

As tough as it may be to accept, behaviours before and after the alleged offence ARE relevant and will be looked at by both the CPS and the jury. And digital evidence, if it exists, may be the key to proving a case, or not. Which is why phones are looked at. It might not seem fair, but the accused has a right to attempt to prove their innocence. In quite a number of cases of sexual assault, we are asking a jury to consider degrees of coercive behaviour or consent.

"Yes we were both drunk"

"No I can't remember clearly what happened, but I would never have sex with a man I just met"

"Yes I was drunk, but it was her idea to keep partying, she suggested coming back to mine, we started to kiss but I can't really remember much after that"

"Yes I kissed him, but I was never going to have sex with him"

In cases like the above (and you can extrapolate many differing scenarios from that) asking a jury to figure out what the two individuals intentions were is an impossible task. Now, maybe a text message either before of after the event might add clarity, or perhaps not.

Sexual assault is an incredibly emotive subject, and unfortunately their are no winners in the game. The victim will ALWAYS see themselves as a victim, irrespective of the outcome of a trial. And the accused (because we publicy name them) WILL have their life ruined either way.

It's not an easy thing to manage.

But the IOPC lead is entitled to defend their position and we should never just assume guilt.

If we consider 70k reports of sexual offences each year, and let's say we go with the assumption that 90% of cases are never reported, and that in all cases a man is the accused, and that a different man is responsible for each offence, so no multiple victims. Then we are looking at, as a maximum, 700k men who are demonstrably sexual offenders. But that's marginally less than 2% of the male population, yes ANY offence is one too many, but it also means 98% of man are NOT behaving in a way which is concerning.

So please, can we stop with this "mumsnet logic" that ALL men are predators, that all our sons, husbands, fathers, brothers, boy scout leaders and teachers are misogynistic bastards and can't be trusted.