Should I move to America or stay in U.K.?

[LittleGreyGoose]

Hello,

I am applying for a fiancé visa to move to America (once granted I would emigrate, marry my American fiancé, and then adjust my status to permanent resident). I would love some perspective, not only from those who have moved / already live there but also anyone who might be planning (or dreaming!) of emigrating. We could try to settle in the U.K. instead so I want to know I'm doing the right thing, purely from a geographical / political / future-proofing move. I'm trying to look at this dispassionately but I’m sleep-deprived and dealing with post-birth hormones so I can’t think straight!

For context we have a baby and a toddler and would be moving to a liberal city but in a republican state. He has a house there already in a good neighbourhood. Currently I’m renting.
For more context he’s great but I’d be foolish to not consider what happens if it doesn’t work out (I do know that my resident status would be permanent after a few years and not reliant upon being married, for example). For even more context, I have lived in other countries before and am an adventurer at heart so the move itself isn’t an issue! Just now I have children so don’t want to mess it up.

Some initial thoughts:

• I have plenty to like about the U.K. but it feels like we are on a steady and slow decline. This makes me feel emigrating is the best option but I also foresee America having its own wobble. Am I naive to think that America is still a land of opportunity or should we go with ‘better the devil you know Britain’?

• while I have no faith in British politics any more, and still rage about the foot shooting mess that is Brexit, it's not exactly rosy in the US either and if Trump gets back into the White House then will I have just jumped from the frying pan into the fire?

• Or, am I just being melodramatic?! I do worry about forthcoming political and social unrest in America and joke to my fiancé about getting 'militia ready' and how I’m lucky I still have my collection of 90s grunge army jackets, but there are credible murmurings of concern for the stability of the country. At least in the U.K., even if everything is a bit shit, I don't worry about this.

• on a more personal level I’ll be leaving a job that I love and will have to wait until I’m given a green card before being able to work in America (which could take up to a year after we get married). This is fine, in theory - it'll be good to spend that time adjusting with the children, and I may even retrain into something more AI proof (currently in comms / writing). I guess I'm just nervous because I'm choosing to leave employment and a career (albeit temporarily) and be reliant upon someone else.

• and finally, I guess there are all the potential administrative and logistical complications of joining forces with a damn yankee (otherwise known as marrying my fiancé). The kids already have American and British citizenship / passports, U.K. bank accounts, and NHS numbers as well as American social security numbers - I want them to have options to settle in either country as they grow, but am I missing anything?

Thanks for reading of you made it this far! Any insight? Anything I haven’t thought of? Am I focusing on the wrong things? Please be kind. I’m at the tale end of PND and catastrophising like crazy!

I’m sorry but I have to ask again: where are uk schools doing “lockdown drills”? I have taken two kids through school, admittedly in the private sector, and have never come across anything other than a fire drill, save for the Jewish school I mentioned above.

American here, now living in UK. Democrat run states are worse. I've been a Democrat all my life. I'm from a Democrat run state-Oregon. I went back recently to visit my parents and was shocked at what the Dems have done to this once beautiful state. The homeless drug addicts are everywhere. Portland looks like a DMZ with businesses fleeing all the time, shootings at all time highs and skyrocketing crime. Yes, gun violence affects dem states too. It's the same in SFO, Seattle and other Democrat run cities. Yeah, I know Republican states have hamstrung women's rights with Draconian abortion laws, but democrats are not the champions of women's rights that they claim to be. I would say the democrats are currently letting down every single group they claim to champion and creating dystopian hellholes along the way. It's my own party, and I now think they are just as bad as the republicans, in some regards worse.

We lived in the USA for 6 years before moving back to the UK and I honestly would disagree with a lot of these comments, I much preferred living in the US to here and my daughter would agree.

I feel the american school system is definitely much better than people are making it out to be. Obviously we cannot deny that shootings are a recurring issue, however the drills in place for such events are very similar to lockdown drills in the UK already so I wouldn’t worry about them mentally harming your children as they’ll be exposed to similar in the UK already. The next point I want to make is the actual schools and the system itself, I feel as though Americas is far better than in the UK.
If we look at the high school system as an example, students are required to have done a minimum of several hours of community service in order to be allowed to graduate high school and they can also take ‘different’ subjects as electives. Obviously they still do maths, english and science but I think the range of subjects they can take and the need to do volunteering makes them more well rounded as a whole, and my daughter definitely preferred it to the UK system, she was actually excited and loved going to school in the US!

I also think people are generally much nicer and friendlier. We lived in a neighbourhood relatively close to the city (Washington DC) and it still had an amazing community feel and there was so much to do with the kids. The day we moved in one of the neighbourhood kids came to greet my daughter and they became best friends instantly, it was amazing! Never got this feeling living in England, but I guess it could depend on the area.

I honestly could go on and on and I have to stress that the experience will vary for everyone but from my experience, raising kids and general quality of life was far superior and if I could move back tomorrow I certainly would!

I think this is the point. Whoever is in power in the US these days is pretty mad. No refuge from lunacy.

Are you saying that because you had assisted reproduction for your children, or your fiance has had a vasectomy?

I knew a lady had 3 children by IVF, which followed many years of fertility. 5 years after youngest born, she naturally conceived. From none to 4.

I have lived in both countries as has my DH.

The thing I would say about the education system is that it's very different. It's hard to compare directly. Neither the US nor the UK score that well when you look at the international rankings for developed countries so I don't think there's much to get hyper patriotic about on either side.

The US system is much more generalist, the UK system more specialised. There's little doubt that someone with a Maths A Level will know considerably more math(s) than the vast majority of American high school graduates BUT equally the average American high school graduate will know more about a range of subjects. Which is better will depend on the type of child really. Personally I had a good sense of what I wanted to do early and I would have found it frustrating to have to continue with subjects I wasn't interested in but my DH was the opposite and didn't like being forced to specialise early.

Sports is an interesting one - if you have a sporty child, it is awesome in the US, they get much better facilities and can get a sweet deal on university costs. But because sports are taken so seriously there's not much space for the children who enjoy it but don't want to give up several evenings a week and weekends or children who don't enjoy it but whose parents want them to do something for exercise. My BIL and SIL in the US are quite frustrated by the lack of sporting options that don't take over their life.

The other thing I would say is that it's subtly different culturally when it comes to parenting. If you're on Facebook I recommend the Slate Parenting group which gives a bit of a flavour of American parenting as folk post their parenting issues. One that I notice is that the British attitude to babies, toddlers and preschoolers of "when in doubt take them out/ run them around outside/give them some fresh air" is not as prevalent. I see quite a few posts from parents asking why their 3 year old isn't happy to sit quietly and play on their own while they WFH whereas I think the overwhelming response on here would be "that's unrealistic" on the Slate forum you'll see folk suggesting craft activities.

Of course like all generalisations there are exceptions, I am not saying that any of this is 100% true in all instances, this is just my experience of being in a transatlantic family

Statistically, the "Democratic hellholes" idea simply doesn't stack up. with regard to homelessness, we have a housing crisis and the federal courts ruled that you can't arrest people for rough sleeping. The combination means that homelessness, especially in states with milder climates, is more visible. I live in a Democratic state. My area is very safe. If I drive 45 minutes to Baltimore, not so much... but if you look at a crime map of the city, the patterns are very clear. It is about drugs and poverty.

slate is generally skewed towards a white, middle to upper middle class audience. I dare say that parents in that group don't think of sending small children out to play because a lot of parents are afraid to let their children out unsupervised. I've lived in one neighbourhood here where younger children (not toddlers though) did go out to play and one where they didn't, but the older ones would go around on their bicycles. It seems here that neighbourhood layout is a significant contributor. When we lived in a townhouse and people were closer, and we had a communal grassy area that could be accessed directly, more kids went out to play. If the houses are spaced out and there's no sidewalks, or there's traffic, they don't. American parents, especially middle class ones, are really socialised not to let children wander. It's about the perception of safety as much as actual safety. (In my opinion, in an American suburban middle class neighbourhood the largest risk is from cars and you would do well to be careful about that.) In Austin, summer weather and pollen season will be your outdoor issues. (If you haven't, look up the cedar pollen explosion. It happens yearly.)

I do agree that sport can get competitive too quickly and it can be harder to find activities for children who need an outlet but are not competitive or sporty.

Ooh one cultural difference I've noticed British parents are generally much more keen on feeding their younger kids tea and putting them to bed ASAP. It's a funny little difference but American children either stay longer at after school care or go home to play, and eat their dinners later. Just to give you an example of how Americans are different in small ways.

@knitnerd90 I didn't mean letting kids out to play on their own - more things like taking them to the playground or to a playgroup or soft play or even just a walk round the block. Culturally I think it's more normal in the US to stay at home with your kids - literally not in the sense of not working

Ah i see. I think it's somewhat true, again depends on neighbourhood. In my experience people who live in cities or inner suburbs and have places to walk to use them. But in the sort of suburbs you see on TV, where it's all just houses, they don't. Soft play isn't as big here, I agree. There are meetup groups and such, public libraries are a good spot. In more conservative areas it can get very churchy. My area isn't but a friend had a problem with that.

I agree that the design of neighbourhoods makes a big difference but it gets a bit chicken and egg in that how neighbourhoods are designed reflects what people want. And I think there are more Americans who want to raise their families in these suburbs with the big houses etc. And I get why it's attractive too - I lived in one of those for a couple of years as a child. But for raising my own children, I like a more urban setting - though you can find those in some bits of the US too

My son emigrated to the US on a "fiancé visa" 12 years ago. They, had known each other a long time, so they got married pretty quickly.

It did take him a while to get his Green card and find a good job, but he got there, in the end.

He's got a job he loves, which pays pretty well.

He loves it out there. They have a lovely house (far better than he'd have here), great healthcare (via a good insurance package), and a generally good life.

They have all recently been over here (for my DHs funeral), and my son has no regrets over living there.

Mind you, I did say no when they asked me to pack up and move over to America to live with them!😳

I'm too much of a Londoner to fit in anywhere else now lol

I found it a bit crap for meeting other moms tbh. In the city it was all 2 working parents with non existent mat leave working long hours. Groups were all nannies. We eventually got friendly with a family that picked up from daycare at the same time and we used to occasionally go for pizza on a Friday altogether but weren’t especially close. I only really made friends through work until the pandemic when daycare was closed and a bunch of us working moms used to climb the fence into the closed playpark at the same time 🤣 Probably different in the suburbs though but that wouldn’t be enough to make me want to want to live there.

Thanks. Really good points here. That 'fuck you, I've got mine' attitude is actually something my fiancé and I have discussed before. He's worked a lot in Europe and so has a more lefty approach to this than some of his compatriots but he sometimes does fall back into that more individualistic streak! But yes, this is a good point - it will only be good for us if we remain on that side of life.

The risk of custody is absolutely something I'm going to take more seriously. Probably the biggest thing I need to consider. I will look at legalities and discuss with my fiancé separately - we are realistic about the potential pitfalls and he knows I'm the one risking most.

You've just reminded me of the time I worked for an American-based company in London, and how much they felt they had a right to your very soul! I thought nothing of sending emails at 2am to the states to catch their working hours. Ugh, I'd almost forgotten that.

Re not being in Europe, I don't actually take advantage frequently and I agree with you that there's a lot of America I want to explore. I'm lucky that I've travelled all over the place, but am yet to experience the vast, beautiful and diverse country of America. So this isn't a worry per se, and thanks for reminding me how much there is to see and do in North America.

So I've already returned to the U.K. once, and it was a bit of a ball ache to get repatriated. And that was just me, so yes, something else to consider now there's a family. We actually reached out to a U.K. immigration lawyer a while back so will keep that contact should things change!

And yes, you've summed up some of my thoughts. I think America suits us at this particular stage. Quality of life, better opportunities and - if I'm honest - I'm a bit done with the U.K. (for now). And maybe it's the itinerant in me but I'm not worried about changing things if that no longer suits us down the line. Thanks for helping me put that into perspective.

As an avid atheist who enjoys living in the fluffy non-throat-ramming religious U.K. maybe I haven't considered this bit of the move actually. I remember once speaking to some distant relatives up in Canada and just assumed they weren't religious (because that's just not my circle). When they realised I didn't believe in god I think they prayed for my soul. So yes, another thing I should think about. I'm quite outspoken, will I have to reign that in?! (Rhetorical question 😆)

@user1471459805 I will indeed try to find out how to message directly! Thank you

@lljkk you know you're right. I should actually take this more seriously. It's unlikely because I'm on a contraceptive implant and am in my mid 40s (not to mention have zero time for any of those shenanigans right now with two under two) but of course none of that is a given. I should consider what would happen on a more personal level should another pregnancy occur.

School shootings is literally all I could think from your first line OP. Shooter drills from a really young age must be so anxiety inducing for kids and that's before anything actually happens. I'd be fearful literally every day my kid left for school. It sends kids a message you should expect to live in fear, but just suck it up, which is crazy.

Me too, genuinely interested, what is a lockdown drill? Never heard of it here.

To those saying Dem states have their own issues, especially with housing, that's interesting to hear from others actually. My fiancés parents are Republicans in a blue state and have been negative about what they see. I have to admit to not taking them seriously because they are biased against their state politics but there are some good points raised here that make me think I shouldn't dismiss their experiences quite so readily! But as a pp says, it's not quite so clear cut. Interesting to think about.

So, (hypothetically) I’m not scared of staying in America and co-parenting if things were to go south. Conversely, he probably wouldn’t be averse to moving to the U.K. to co-parent here either (he has no deep-rooted pull to America, having worked overseas most his life)

The thing is, you can't rely on him being reasonable in the event of a split. He may do things to spite you, and he certainly wouldn't move his life to the UK to make things easier for you, because if you do split, the chances are he will hate you and do anything to point score.

I moved countries (only within the UK), with my DH of sixteen years and our two children. One year later, I discovered that he'd been messing around with other women, and four years after that, our marriage was over. I could have moved back with the kids, but wouldn't have wanted them to be six hours away from their Dad. He, on the other hand suggested that the children could go and live with his family, as he could convert the loft in to a room for them. It made no sense, and was one of the craziest suggestions he ever made. Needless to say, he was told to fuck off and the children stayed with me.

I thought we could be friends and co parent nicely. I remember my old Dad saying "just remember that this man is no longer your friend" and boy, oh boy, was he right.

This is something I wonder about. I think because maternity is longer in the U.K. it allows for more organic friendships to grow? I have heard that mum / baby groups aren't quite the same over there and it will be a lot of nannies. But I hope to meet other people through volunteering or sports clubs or just being open and friendly so we shall see. But a good perspective, thanks.

Fair point. Perhaps I'm being naive. I guess for me the kids come first for both of us so I can't imagine him getting spiteful but I'd be silly to not consider this. I will look into the legal options I'd have, and try and put things in place should the worse happen. I still wouldn't want to take them away from the same continent as their father, but I should cover all bases of potential fuck ups along the way.

A huge thanks to all who have commented. I am so glad I posted my question, it’s exactly what I wanted to read - a wide range of opinions, most of which I agree with and some I hadn’t even considered but they’ve all made me focus my thoughts more clearly. I now have a good list of things to consider with fiancé and iron out before we make any final commitment. We’ve decided to continue with the process until the day I need to move - and if we change our minds then so be it. This makes me feel less pressured so will continue to do my research and put my ducks in a row before that!

I have plenty of other questions that have arisen out of this but they’re more America-specific so I will join the Overseas forum for those.

Thanks again (y’all)

I tried the volunteering one and only met much younger students looking to boost their resume and retirees trying to fill their day, no one was my age/life stage. Sports I also found a struggle as it was all quite serious and there didn’t seem to be anything particularly recreational that was a sport I knew, yoga class no one talked to each other. Idk it was weird. Once my EAD came through and I got back to work it was good fun though! I just couldn’t live there long term because it’s too violent a place to raise kids IMO (each to their own though).