Those of you who think NHS needs more money

[roarfeckingroarr]

I'm genuinely interested in whether you think these jobs - some on double the national average wage - are a good use of public money?

I totally accept the NHS is on its knees in places and that nurses should be paid more. When you see money going on art managers (for £50k pa), surely the answer is massive reform and priorities made, rather than even more money?

It just blows my mind how you have a lack of front line workers and many of those being paid a pittance and yet someone in Southampton will be paid £50k to work on some wild art.

Why is this sort of nonsense always brought out when we talk about the NHS. Nursing has evolved so need more critical thinking skills, research ability, improvement. And it's 50:50 taught and placement hours. They just don't spend all the time on a ward anymore - because a lot of nursing is not ward based - it's GP surgeries, care homes, community, specialist nursing teams and not everyone who trains wants to work on a ward.

It's not an insult to nurses who trained before project 2000 that nurses now qualify with a degree, like all the other professionals who work in the NHS do. It's just evolved.

Nurses don't have to put up with bad conditions, so they move around. And why shouldn't someone who qualifies as a nurse want to progress in their career and develop to improve care, improve patient experience etc.

Apologies - I know that's not what the threads about, but no wonder nurses don't stay in the NHS when there is that sort of attitude when they qualify.

@roarfeckingroarr there are many inefficiencies within the NHS that should be eliminated. However a handful of jobs you disapprove of (and that are being funded by charities) shouldn't mean the end of the NHS. Many people in other countries suffer because they don't have a system like the NHS to rely on. We'll all be much worse off without the NHS. It should be better funded and more money should be put into front line services. People should also not abuse it because it is "free". We all have a collective responsibility to protect the NHS, not just the staff within it but self-managing where we can for minor ailments.

MN is inundated with anti-NHS threads.

It's almost as if there's an agenda pushing privatisation..

These jobs aren't required at all. I work in the private sector and deal with sustainability professionals regularly and most of them wouldn't be missed if they weren't there. Total waste of time

That's the private sector.

Publically funded institutions/organisations like the NHS can't just fuck off government policies around sustainability etc.

Can you provide a reference to the regulation the have to comply with?

"Can you provide a reference to the regulation the have to comply with?"

www.england.nhs.uk/greenernhs/publication/delivering-a-net-zero-national-health-service/

Suspect it is in here. Launched by the Government in 2020.
Knock yourself out.

The NHS is responding double for about 5 % of the carbon emissions of the UK. The NHS will also be the organisation which has to care for all the climate related health issues ramping up over the years. I would say these roles are an excellent and far sighted investment on that basis.

Responsible not responding. Sorry.

Yep. They are.

I worked in the NHS for years before leaving last year for a job with a private healthcare provider. My job in the NHS was managing a massive programme of work encompassing service improvement projects across several long term conditions. I had a whole network of staff (about 20 people) to be responsible for and a multi million pound budget. I was never "off" as we were constantly under pressure from national teams and I can't remember the last time I had a weekend that didn't involve work.
For that I was paid around £80K as an 8C on afc.
I now have a similar level of responsibility but a better work life balance and no on call for when something goes wrong (always on a bank holiday weekend from experience). For that I'm paid £150K.

I have never met a project manager in the NHS on £150K. They are usually band 7 (starts at £45 I think) or 8a if senior (£50k ish). The ones I've worked with are highly trained, experienced and amazing at delivering projects to time and on budget and projects which make a difference to how services are delivered so good for both staff and patients.
The ones I work with now are no where near the same calibre as the ones I left behind ans yet are paid in the region of £60K.

The NHS is constantly being tinkered with by politicians and that's when they aren't gojng through a massive - and always expensive - restructure like NHSE now. Maybe if the politicians let the staff get in with it then the NHS can be everything people want it to be - believe me, the people working in it - from porters to chief execs, non-clinical and clinical are all aware of how to improve things for patients, but they are not allowed to do so.

Instead they are forced into a position where several months productivity is wasted due to a pointless restructure. Not to mention the hefty voluntary redundancy bill that the treasury is forking out for, which is only going to led to a massive hole in experience and organisational memory.

I never thought I'd leave and indeed if this position hadn't come up I would have taken my chances, but at 50 and having gone through one too many restructures I jumped at the chance to escape.

But that’s the same for every career in the public sector? Doesn’t matter whether you are a nurse, cleaner, management accountant, physio, teacher, electrician, school cook etc. once you are at the top of your pay scale you are at the top of your pay scale and the only way to earn more is to take on people management responsibilities or move to another sector?

Yes pretty much, principle being that someone with less responsibility and less duties isn't out earning someone who has more by virtue of stagnating in the same role for years. Of course this has many issues such as if you enjoy the team, the job and don't wish to take on the additional crap, but then there has to be some incentive to go for promotion. I suspect its the case sometimes that bandings are off and people pick up additional duties without being formally promoted, but it doesn't seem realistic or fair to have an open ceiling which doesn't have a limit.

@hexsnidgett what a ignorant and dumb comment.

The main problem with afc is that there are a number of trusts that seem to totally ignore it and exploit people (again both clinical and non clinical) by banding jobs somewhat at will. Many years ago I saw a job for Head of Information Governance being advertised for a band 6. It is totally insane to expect a job of that much responsibility to be a low banding.

I think that with a separate pay scale for nurses the problem will be that the scales will be based on band 5-6 as it is now. There is plenty of opportunities for nurses to be promoted, but those jobs, quite rightly, come with additional manage,ent responsibilities.

I totally agree. There is an anti-NHS agenda and those who will benefit from privatisation are trying to persuade those who certainly will be worse off to agree with them. A very sad situation.

@roarfeckingroarr your screen shots are very grainy and difficult to make out, but at least one of those zero carbon roles is in Estates and that means it will be hands on, practical and about genuine energy cost savings. The NHS has an enormous amount of work to do in reducing its energy use, and most of its problems stem from old buildings, heating and cooling systems that are Stone Age and a constant lack of maintenance and investment.

And the private sector only do it because it can impact their share price.

It absolutely does NOT need more money. It needs to get rid of excess middle management (my husband's ward has a senior nurse, a deputy ward manager, a ward manager AND a modern matron) and stop wasting money on tick box positions like ethnicity and inclusivity officers. The contracts for drugs etc also need looking at, £14 for a box of paracetamol that can be bought for less than 50p in Aldi etc is appalling

@Tessabelle74 I agree with you on NHS procurement - that is dire.

I disagree with you on staffing.

A modern matron will normally have responsibility for more than one ward - in my Trust, the modern matron in my directorate will have responsibility for 12 wards, not just one.

You need a ward manager and a deputy because wards run 24/7 and people can only work so many hours a week.

Ideally you need two senior nurses, you can't leave a ward solely staffed by Band 5s and HCAs.

Lastly, diversity and inclusivity means you have a more representative workforce, which benefits the patients. I work in a mental health trust, and the impact of mental ill health hits very differently in different ethic groups. Having people on staff who understand that makes everyone's life easier and means patients have a better shot at recovery. All our staff in ethnicity and inclusivity also work as nurses.

The bottom two aren't funded by the NHS. Moving to Net Zero would save the NHS loads of money, so, yes, will be well worth the money.

People here have talked about European funding levels but in France you have to pay a cortina amount to see a GP and not all of it recoverable by their insurance system. I’m all in favour of an insurance system or co payments here even if it is privatisation as it stops the wasted appointments etc, it’s not fair to quote European funding unless we adopt similar.

The NHS needs a do over.

There are too many Managers on top dollar floating about, changing things round to save money and headcount at the expense of patients lives and nursing and doctor staff income. I don't work in the public sector but it happens in private too - the difference is, in banking you can automate absolutely everything and then deal with the fallout when systems go down; you can't in healthcare. You need people. But if they can replace a nurse with a questionnaire at the same time as providing everyone with rainbow lanyards so they're still Right On, they will.

Sorry but that’s a Daily Mail type knee jerk repeated response. Management in the NHS is just over 2% of staff compared to about 9% in private businesses. It’s been well researched and here’s just one article on it. There are loads more

https://www.nhsconfed.org/long-reads/nhs-overmanaged#:~:text=NHS%20managers%20make%20up%20circa,under%2C%20not%20over%2C%20managed.

The NHS is incredibly lean compared to comparably sized organisations.

It doesn't need more money. It needs to be cancelled and rebuilt from scratch. We need a system like the US healthcare system. My parents went there for treatment and it is honestly the best I've ever seen. The hospitals are clean, there is barely any wait time, facilities are state of the art and you deal directly with their equivalent of the consultant. The food is also much nicer at the hospital and you even get a wine list.