Those of you who think NHS needs more money

[roarfeckingroarr]

I'm genuinely interested in whether you think these jobs - some on double the national average wage - are a good use of public money?

I totally accept the NHS is on its knees in places and that nurses should be paid more. When you see money going on art managers (for £50k pa), surely the answer is massive reform and priorities made, rather than even more money?

It just blows my mind how you have a lack of front line workers and many of those being paid a pittance and yet someone in Southampton will be paid £50k to work on some wild art.

The nhs needs more money.

It also needs some reform.

Both can be true

So instead of funding posts to create better energy use and sustainable solutions, they should spend their money on continuing to eat energy ?

I'm not an energy expert but i've been in plenty of hospitals where they can't turn radiators off in certain rooms, the bills must be astronomical.

Considering what has happened with fuel prices recently, it is a good idea to future proof the NHS by looking at energy long term.

If this was serious though, you would have to build from scratch.

I know someone who is a project manager in NHS earring around £150k it’s ridiculous and mostly work from home. The consultants don’t earn those salaries. They also took advantage of the blue light discounts as an NHS worker.

So there is a lot in there within the snapshot of roles you posted. Probably too much to cover in a single response. But broadly, you need to separate out those jobs which are funded directly through NHS coffers and those that aren't and funded through other means (eg charities, local government etc). For NHS specific roles the Agenda for Change pay banding is a real noose around most NHS finances. Great on paper (equality and transparency). Rubbish in reality. Frontline staff often end up in highly pressured jobs on lower pay bands, where as "experienced" admin/management and speciliast office based roles can command much higher salaries as they could work in the private sector.

The bigger issue, however, is how the NHS treats staff. Long working hours, bullying behaviour (often driven by top down command and control from government and ridiculous targets with a blame culture) which is causing staff to leave in droves... whether they are frontline or not. Simple things like payroll and procurement are now so outsourced and standardised that the service is often dire. Estates are crumbling through lack of investment and more...

Meanwhile the bottom line is. As a nation we voted for this each time we voted a Tory government in. They relish short term policies that favour minimal public sector investment. So we end up in some sort of downward spiral that no one knows how to stop. It isn't about pumping more money in but rethinking health, public health and social care.

Oh and the net zero roles... The NHS is a huge emitter of greenhouse gases. A few roles per trust to manage the transition is essential.

And I thought I had too much time on my hands.

Net zero targets save money, the energy bills within a trust are enormous. These could be cost-savings posts in the long run.

As others pointed out, the bottom 2 (not energy related) are charity funded; one is fixed term & the other could relate a lot to patient well-being.

On thread title question, solving social care crisis would solve a lot of NHS problems. Social care isn't completely integrated into NHS right now, so not as simple as giving NHS more money to sort social care problems.

You’re not paying towards this position, it’s charity and/or externally funded.

It's not taking advantage of the discount, they're open to anyone who works for certain organisations, including corporate staff. It's not a ridiculous wage for a PM either, the fact healthcare staff deserve and should get higher pay doesn't change that. Not sure of the relevance of it being work from home- presumably the demands and output from the role are the same regardless of where they work from. To get professionals they need to compete against the private sector, many of whom with the level of responsibility and experience required for that pay in the NHS will be on very decent money with better perks.

Yes you're right, the existence of these jobs proves that the NHS doesn't need more money, and we're all wrong. Well done you for being so clever.

What if the person in the net zero role (which I believe is a mandated target for NHS hospitals) saves £100k a year as a result of the work they do? Or do you think it's ok if the NHS spends unlimited money on energy with no attempt to manage that? If you think the NHS should manage energy consumption and find ways to be cost effective in their energy use, who do you think would make that happen? Do you think a nurse or a doctor should do that work?

Honestly this argument is like saying Tesco can run its business with only checkout staff.

Exactly. The sustainability manager could be responsible for negotiating electricity contracts.

At the rate its used in a large hospital trusts, they are likely to be into hedging and futures contracts etc.

You know, the sort of knowledge and skills that earn 'big job' substantial six figure sums in the private sector.

Yet in the NHS they're offering £50-60k.

I find the NHS needing money issue to be in relation to a complete overhaul of the system.

Recruitment is major - as far as I’m aware a nursing degree used to be free, plus bursaries to cover when on placement, these have all gone i believe. I recently had a baby and for every trained midwife they had a student midwife with them, some working 4 x 12 hour night shifts for free and you wouldn’t of known the difference between them and a fully qualified midwife.

NHS staff are spread so thinly i don’t blame them wanting a higher wage, but we need to look at the deep rooted issues in culture and HR within the NHS to encourage people back into employment with them.

That simply can't be true. A senior project manager in the NHS in London will currently earn around £62000 at the most.

Let's have a proper, informed discussion about the NHS but to quote rubbish as facts is really unhelpful.

Only on MN it isn’t.

Income: £180,000,000,000
Population: 68,000,000
Average annual spend per person: £2,650

Feels about right.

I’ve been visiting my local hospital a lot over the last month or you.

I did notice how nice the overall environment was - that included a huge amount of art work. I assume it was all done by a someone in a post similar to this.
I thought it was a fairly established thing that having a high quality environment is good for the mental health and recovery.
So no I dont object to short term projects which improve the overall hospital experience

£50k really isn't a lot of money 😕

^^ cries in band 5

This.

I left because we started out as a team of 24 covering a 24/7 department.

one person left, they didn’t recruit as we could manage on 23. Then another person left, so the rota was rearranged for 22. Then people started burning out and leaving because they couldn’t manage the new rota.

I lasted until we were down to 13 people running a 24 Hr dept. I was making stupid mistakes, was exhausted due to the ridiculous shift pattern. I left, then the whole department was sold to a private company who now contract their services back.

I got pissed off with the martyrdom and general “don’t you know I’m busy”’attitude. If I rang someone for an opinion or to refer a case I’d getting huffing and puffing and I felt like I was asking to sacrifice their first born.

I’m now on a 45k salary compared to the top of band 7 I was on 15 years ago. Worth it though.

I work as a lab assistant for the NHS and earn £23k. I receive patient specimens such as poos, urines, body parts… and do various things with them which are then looked at by people more qualified than I am the next day to see if any infectious organisms have grown. So I think my role is quite important in helping patients get correct treatment if needed! Yet an art manager (what does the NHS need an art manager for?) is getting paid double what I am. Sorry but it’s crap that.

I work as a lab assistant for the NHS and earn £23k. I receive patient specimens such as poos, urines, body parts… and do various things with them which are then looked at by people more qualified than I am the next day to see if any infectious organisms have grown. So I think my role is quite important in helping patients get correct treatment if needed! Yet an art manager (what does the NHS need an art manager for?) is getting paid double what I am. Sorry but it’s crap that.

Cell path biomed scientist here. Our lab would collapse without lab assistants or specimen reception. I started in central specimen band 2 whilst at uni and it is absolute graft. Those people should be paid waaay more.

According to the health foundation around £3000 per person and 18% less than the average of EU14 countries https://www.health.org.uk/news-and-comment/charts-and-infographics/how-does-uk-health-spending-compare-across-europe-over-the-past-decade

I’d suggest not ok to be funding significantly less than our neighbouring countries.

What would you get elsewhere as a lab assistant? Sadly jobs in this society aren't paid by their 'worth', whether that's right or wrong is a separate debate really.

I agree and the nhs keeps creating these bullshit posts that are a high salary to deal with issues your standard manager should be dealing with
In the area I've just moved from we had an admin person in a band 8 job. Totally unqualified yet walks into a band 8 job that involves lots of spreadsheets

From a point of view of providing holistic care I don't see the problem of paying £50,000 for an arts manager.
I am not convinced that having and paying for these kind of roles has any discernible impact on NHS budgets.
Do folk not realise how much the agency staffing bill is ? Not to mention how much all of the friends of government ministers got for ppe that wasn't usable. 🤔

If this person 'walked into' the job why didn't you go for it? By spreadsheets do you mean they work with data? What do you class as a 'standard' manager?