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Two dogs shot in London by police

867 replies

flowagurl · 08/05/2023 08:40

I’m usually very empathetic and recently even posted on an animal testing post but I just can’t find any compassion in my heart for out of control and dangerous animals at the moment, it’s just getting ridiculous. I obviously feel for the owner who I hope gets some kind of mental support/ counselling.

It’s so confusing as I’m usually so compassionate, I guess having a small child and the number of dog attacks does something to your brain? I hate walking past Bullies with my baby in the pram. Even normal dogs I’m starting to get very hesitant about. For context I usually cry if I step on a silver worm in the bathroom so this is a very strange reaction for me.

Interested to hear what other dog owning/ non dog owning people think. Also the government are going to have to step in at some point right?

OP posts:
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whyhere · 08/05/2023 13:33

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/05/2023 12:37

This is an excellent policy.

I've had staffies in the past and also never let anyone pet them without making sure the dogs were sitting, leashed and properly under control. This wasn't because they were aggressive (on the contrary - they were as soft as clarts), but because they were heavy, powerful animals and if they got over-excited and jumped up they could easily send someone flying.

All dogs need to be trained and kept under control. Powerful dogs MUST BE - it's a huge responsibility and not enough people take it seriously.

Absolutely.

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/05/2023 13:34

FrostyFifi · Today 13:30
That woman who was so badly attacked they had to kill the dogs, wasn't taken to the hospital”

Oh, we’ll, that’s alright then 🙄

Eightiesgirl · 08/05/2023 13:34

@Shhhquirrel thank you, that's exactly what I feel too. Just because I feel sorry for the way those poor dogs were shot dead, doesn't mean I don't feel sympathy for the woman who was attacked and, of course, the police who must also have been terrified. I understand they had to judge the situation quickly to avoid further injury but it's absolutely tragic for the dogs that it ended this way. The only one at fault here is their idiotic owner.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

whyhere · 08/05/2023 13:35

Atethehalloweenchocs · 08/05/2023 12:58

I own a Rottweiler who is the biggest mush you could ever meet and likely to lick you if I let her. I see so much irresponsible dog owning and so many people who should have been made to do training with their dogs - including a lot of people with smaller dogs who let them run up to mine barking and snarling. I think dogs need to be licensed and if you have a dog license, you should have to prove that you successfully completed training classes or can pass an equivalent test. And we need more dog parks so people are able to exercise their dogs off lead safely.

Exactly.

whyhere · 08/05/2023 13:37

Thesharkradar · 08/05/2023 13:06

Another person who doesn't have enough brain cells to realize that there is a need to distinguish between propensity to bite and ability to cause damage

I find that people resort to personal attacks when their argument is weak. Please desist.

Thesharkradar · 08/05/2023 13:38

FrostyFifi · 08/05/2023 13:30

That woman who was so badly attacked they had to kill the dogs, wasn't taken to the hospital

She shouldn't have been attacked at all. Very good thing that she wasn't seriously injured.

2 large powerful dogs with the capacity and propensity to kill or maime were out of control. Such animals serve as a weapons and as such should be confiscated and destroyed.
We should stop referring to these animals as pets, they are weapons.

Idratherbepaddleboarding · 08/05/2023 13:39

NurseCranesRolodex · 08/05/2023 12:45

Feel the same but can't articulate without becoming incensed and getting headache. The breeding and illegal and unregulated 'fertility' industry that has appeared around muscle breeds is grotesque. The people at the core of it are creating puppies that sell for £250k and upwards as studs. The utter scum bags who irresponsibly manipulate these poor things then develop clandestine networks trading perm, crossing breeds, over developingmuscle muscle and the other deformities they look for should be shamed, prosecuted and have to watch as the poor, innocent animals they stupidly and without any empathy created as they have to be put to sleep. Unfortunately this is what must happen now across the UK. In the same style as a gun or knife amnesty, these poor creatures must be either surrendered to live out life in a sanctuary or be PTS. I just can't believe it's OK to have a little kids face ripped open or worse because these scumbags are now selling dogs instead of drugs, if not both. Sorry for rant just sickening.

They’re not selling dogs instead of drugs, they’re selling them and laundering their drug money through their dog selling ‘business’ 😡.

whyhere · 08/05/2023 13:40

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/05/2023 13:18

I don't know anything about American bull dogs, but staffies are the best house dog we've ever had. They are affectionate and gentle with family members and with other family animals.

We don't have them now because there is so much controversy about them. Neither of us can be bothered with the random abuse we got as owners of a bull breed any more. Every time there was attack, by any dog, anywhere in the world (or that's what it felt like), reported on TV we got it in the neck from complete strangers who blamed our well-trained, leashed dogs for someone else being bitten.

But yes - they ARE loving.

Absolutely.

FairyPrincess123 · 08/05/2023 13:40

I have no problem with what the police did here. But just for info - does anyone know what would have happend if they Tasered the dogs instead of shooting?

NeonBoomerang · 08/05/2023 13:40

There are some ridiculous statements on this thread. As I write this I'm lying in bed with my napping toddler, my staffie, and my rottie/staffie cross. They're all my cuddly babies.

WiddlinDiddlin · 08/05/2023 13:41

We need people who actually understand dog behaviour, genetics, training etc, to work with government - they are, but unfortunately in a way that the government can totally ignore them if they want to.

Banning Breeds

This doesn't work. It may appear logical to ban breeds but we have significant evidence over the last 30 years from the UK and other countries, that banning breeds does not reduce the number of dangerous dogs, it does not reduce the number of attacks/injuries/fatalities.

There are multiple reasons for this:

  • You have to ban the type, we do not have reliable enough DNA to ban 'breeds'. This means we're banning dogs on appearance, not genetics. A crossbreed of two perfectly legal breeds/types can produce an illegal type. This then means it is possible to buy a legal puppy, and have it grow into an illegal type.
  • Banning types increases desire for that type among the sorts of people who shouldn't be left in charge of a tin opener never mind a dog. It labels them 'dangerous' and some people desire that label.
  • Trends change - there are a huge number of dogs who could easily be made dangerous - anything over around 20kg with a decent set of jaws, from labradors to gsds, malinois, huskies, giant schnauzers. Without addressing the human side of this, the desire to own a dog that intimidates, is a danger to others, we cannot resolve the issue.

We have got to address the human element here, because that is the common denominator in the vast majority of dog related incidents. I can guarantee you, almost every single dog involved in an attack in the last 20 years, will tick multiple of the following bullet points.

  • Produced by a back yard/dodgy breeder
  • Bought to intimidate/protect
  • Multiple owners
  • Trained using aversives
  • Owners of low socio-economic status
  • Living in poor accomodation
  • Mental and physical needs not met
  • Actively encouraged to be aggressive
  • Known to be fearful/reactive
  • Owners with poor/no education
  • Owners involved in drugs
  • Domestic violence/abusive relationships
  • Left unsupervised/improperly supervised with children
  • Handled/housed unsafely (off lead, poor fencing, chained up)
  • Owners clueless about training or behaviour.

These factors are far more significant than breed, but of course the size of the dog, the genetics, the temperament, all play a part. Someone that fits a handful of the criteria above is much more likely to own a big breed that is poorly bred with genetics that predispose towards fear, aggression, lack of impulse control etc etc, but you could give them the nicest, most thoughtfully bred, healthiest dog in the world and they'd probably make it an aggressive mess.

We need to change other legislation - 'causing a dog to behave aggressively towards humans with intent to injure' - should be an offence. Many people who are responsible for a dangerous dog have bought that dog to use as a weapon. If they bought a machete and walked around the streets brandishing it and threatening people with it, they would be arrested.

We need to use the animal welfare act and recognise the link between poor handling, poor mangement, bad training that amounts to abuse, and attacks on people. There are people out there offering training to turn your dog into a weapon, and they are using shock collars, spiked prong collars, fear and intimidation to do this, and that is currently perfectly legal, despite the animal welfare act stating:

Owners and keepers have a duty of care to their animals and must make sure they meet their needs:

  • for a suitable environment and place to live
  • for a suitable diet
  • to exhibit normal behaviour patterns
  • to be housed with, or apart from, other animals (if applicable)
  • to be protected from pain, injury, suffering and disease

It is not legal to cause unnecessary suffering, and there is sufficient data out there now to show that aversive training methods are unecessary (because positive reinforcement based methods are as effective or more effective).

We also need to properly evaluate dogs involved in incidents, wherever possible.

This means seizing dogs and holding them at an appropriate facility to be assessed and evaluated by dog behaviour experts.

This can tell us information on how that dog behaves normally, whether their behaviour is neurological in origin, is it pain based, is it trained/learned behaviour. That then leads us to 'who is responsible/is someone responsible for this'.

There have been cases where a dog is accused of something, and in fact the 'attack' is by another dog, or has been engineered to cover up some other crime. For example, a child dying of neglect/physical abuse - dog bites were used to cover up earlier injuries. Another example, a baby with addicted parents dies and later on their neglected, starved dog finds the childs body... Both these cases are from the US, where it is possible to seize dogs and evaluate them.

Who knows what crimes have gone uninvestigated because here, we shoot the evidence ASAP or euth it without assessment.

We need people to understand dog behaviour, manage and handle their dogs safely, train them appropriately.

We also need to be careful what we ask for - having all dogs muzzled, on tight leads, only off in dog parks is likely to result in a higher number of dogs with very poor social skills with both humans and other dogs.

Dog parks are a horrific concept in reality - small barren areas full of dogshit where dog fights are common. To create a useful, safe and beneficial dog park, we'd be asking local authorities to spend a lot of money, dedicate a lot of land, and do a lot of research - and that simply isn't going to happen.

dontlookbackyourenotgoingthatway · 08/05/2023 13:41

FairyPrincess123 · 08/05/2023 13:40

I have no problem with what the police did here. But just for info - does anyone know what would have happend if they Tasered the dogs instead of shooting?

Would be considered cruel.

I think they did the right thing

RatSlave · 08/05/2023 13:43

Allfizzandfun · 08/05/2023 12:55

@RatSlave it was a German Wire-haired Pointer. Awful behaviour from the owner. Can’t understand it.

Unfortunately dogs are too easy to buy. Have a scroll through freeads and you’ll see XL Bully’s for sale for ££££, some of which are older and looking for a new home due to ‘change of circumstances’. Utterly ridiculous they are trying to make their money back and sell their problem on. At least go to a rehoming facility and surrender.

Thanks for correcting me! Last I had read they still hadn't gotten hold of the owners and I was going from looks. Actually just checking that out the owners are still in hiding!
More proof that it's bad owners and not bad dogs causing these problems.
I swear we went through this with Dobermans, Huskies, Staffies everytime a breed gets popular more bad owners are revealed and to blame it all on the breed is simplifying the problem far too much.

ladygindiva · 08/05/2023 13:44

Allfizzandfun · 08/05/2023 13:13

Worth quoting as noones responded. Just have a look at the stats. And tell me a border collie is as dangerous as an XL bully.

Thesharkradar · 08/05/2023 13:46

Dog parks are a horrific concept in reality - small barren areas full of dogshit where dog fights are common
Of course they are! I wouldn't expect anything different, but at least there are fewer dogs and less dog excrement elsewhere. If dog parks are the only options for exercising your dog off lead that will put people off of getting dogs.
The fewer dogs the better

Thesharkradar · 08/05/2023 13:49

More proof that it's bad owners and not bad dogs causing these problems
Which sounds rather like 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'
The truth is that people with guns kill people....and bad owners with large powerful dogs cause these problems

ladygindiva · 08/05/2023 13:50

Thesharkradar · 08/05/2023 13:49

More proof that it's bad owners and not bad dogs causing these problems
Which sounds rather like 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'
The truth is that people with guns kill people....and bad owners with large powerful dogs cause these problems

Spot on

Boomboom22 · 08/05/2023 13:50

Really I don't want any dogs as pets. That rescue is breaking the law if they rehome those dogs, I don't think rescues are fit for purpose as those who work there seem to just love animals and see no danger / blame the previous owner which is correct but by the by, or blame children or people for not knowing how to behave around dogs. Bullies in a rescue centre should surely be pts.

SerendipityJane · 08/05/2023 13:50

FairyPrincess123 · 08/05/2023 13:40

I have no problem with what the police did here. But just for info - does anyone know what would have happend if they Tasered the dogs instead of shooting?

I suspect there hasn't been much if any research done on the issue. And in the absence of any procedure, it just too damn risky to try and find out when you have a killer dog headed your way.

Once again, total respect to the police.

Boomboom22 · 08/05/2023 13:52

I'd hope the paving the way for far faster destruction of dangerous dogs at the scene or if they look like they are going to attack rather than after the event. As it was police in danger not a child mps might actually talk about the issue in parliament.

RatSlave · 08/05/2023 13:53

Thesharkradar · 08/05/2023 13:49

More proof that it's bad owners and not bad dogs causing these problems
Which sounds rather like 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'
The truth is that people with guns kill people....and bad owners with large powerful dogs cause these problems

No, again I think that simplifies it too much. Much as a gun can be used to protect people (as it was in this case) it can also in the wrong persons hands become a murder weapon. A well raised and trained dog can be a delight and used to protect people (police dogs, disability support animals) a dog in the hands of someone who doesn't care to treat their animal properly can become a murder weapon.

Eightiesgirl · 08/05/2023 13:53

@Thesharkradar I'll second that request from @whyhere asking you to stop with the insults, calling people stupid and making comments about brain cells etc Can't you deal with other people's differing opinions in an adult way and without having to resort to insults?

Corgiowner · 08/05/2023 13:54

Lonelycrab · 08/05/2023 11:11

All dos muzzled and leashed in public. Easily enforced. Children protected outside at least

I agree.

How do you define a public space? Here we have the right to roam you can go virtually anywhere, are we saying everywhere is a public space? I live in one of the least population dense areas in the UK I rarely see anyone from one day to the next should I be required to muzzle my dogs every time I walk them (I would do this if the law said I had too). Who would police this? I never see the police from one month to the next. Or are we saying dogs should be muzzled in public parks, high streets cafe etc. Looking at the list on Wikipedia of those who've tragically died it appears most were killed in homes or gardens and or the dogs were known to them.
I maybe being obtuse here but I don't see how licensing would prevent dog attacks, and if it was compulsory for all dog owners to attend training classes who's going to police that and if say you already own a dog or like me have owned well behaved dogs for 50 years should I attend everytime I get a new dog? I definitely don't agree that public funds should pay for those who cant afford it we cant afford Sure Start so we shouldn't under any circumstances being channelling money onto training dog owners.
I think a lot of it comes down to those who breed dogs. I repeatedly see/hear dogs being sold to completely unsuitable owner, in the vet recently a couple in their late 70's being sold a enormous German Shepherd the couldn't even hold it on the lead it was so powerful it had loads of behavioural problems and they were saying to me how they don't walk it far because of their various health issues. They even admitted that one breeder had refused to sell them a GSD because of their age and that in retrospect maybe she was right "but they are such gorgeous dogs so we found a dodgy breeder who was happy to sell us one". They were talking about rehoming if they couldn't sort it out an absolute unnecessary tragedy for a dog. Or another thing I sometimes see around here is working gun dog puppies being sold as pets to people in their 80's that's 15 years of owing a super active dog the breeder is being irresponsible. So IMO we should be "policing" dog breeders they need to take responsibility for who they are selling their dogs too.

Misspacorabanne · 08/05/2023 13:54

@NeonBoomerang 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

SerendipityJane · 08/05/2023 13:57

How do you define a public space?

A space the public have access to. It's not quantum physics. Notice how the drink driving laws can be enforced on private property, if the public have access to it (e.g. car parks).

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