Prosecuted for driving while tired?

[echt]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/may/08/blood-test-for-sleepy-drivers-could-pave-way-for-prosecutions
and
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/may/08/experts-divided-on-ethics-of-testing-and-punishing-tired-drivers

This is at the research stage, but tests are being investigated that will pick up the blood markers showing that a person is too tired to drive.
What do you think of it? My immediate thought was of current drink/drug testing in Australia where drivers are pulled over routinely for testing at random.

Shy stats ?

Strict liability cases are still heard by a court. What's different about them is that the prosecution does not have to prove mens rea.

@Allergictoironing

These are similar commutes for many of our critical services workers; not just nurses and doctors but the admin staff at hospitals, the public transport drivers getting them in, the on call engineers who need to fix critical equipment (imagine trying to get public transport at 3am to fix someone's life dependent equipment!), manufacturing workers, bakers.....

Well said…this isn’t just a potential problem for those in the caring industries, and it’s not just critical services either.

Where I once worked we did have quite a few instances of people admitting to falling asleep at the wheel post long shifts.

Eventually there were warnings issued by both the employer and also the relevant unions that the police already had legislation to fall back on that would allow prosecution of anybody involved in an accident who was found to be driving having been out of bed for (in some cases) for close to or over 24 hours (cf. Selby)

Isn't that what I said ?

If you tell people they can't drive so have to use public transport, you may not be reducing the number of deaths from fatigue.

Why?

Well to use the post above to illustrate a point.

An A and E doctor working shifts can't drive because they are too tired. So they get public transport to work. But it takes considerably longer to get too and from work. This adds an extra few hours to their working day.

This means they are more tired at work. And perform less well at work. Which means they make more errors which are potentially fatal.

These deaths are not necessarily measurable but may still be happening though it may be that fatigue in the work place may be measurable.

Or that you end up with night shifts even more understaffed as few people are able to work them so that results in deaths too.

Apply to workers using heavy/ dangerous equipment too. More deaths in the work place?

My point is that fatigue needs to be looked at in terms of causes not just a driving ban as you risk just shifting the problem or creating other social issues.

That's not the same as drinking or drugs whilst driving.

Do you think the markers can make the difference between the lack of sleep of an call doctor and the lack of sleep if someone who was out partying

Im imagining court procedures and review of markers if good lack of sleep and bad of sleep 😁😁🤪🤪

Seeing the number if medications that clearly state to be careful whilst driving heavy machinery, I’m wondering if anyone has ever done a study on the number of accidents whilst under the influence of medication (OTC or prescribed)….

No, you said that the court does not need to come to a verdict. It does. The prosecution needs to prove its case. It just doesn't need to prove mens rea.

Agreed, women and those in poverty, with mental heath problems, undesirable working hours. How about more investment in supporting people who are chronically exhausted for whatever reason. Would all women need to stop driving in the early weeks of pregnancy?

Not UK, not roads, but as an example:

https://www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/oamtechreports/2010s/media/201113.pdf

@DanceMonster

have an autistic child who doesn’t sleep. I am never ‘suitably rested’. I live semi rurally in an area with poor public transport as that’s where my support network is for the autistic child. It would just mean me giving up my job

There's a difference between being tired and driving and being so tired that you are dangerous whilst driving.

@notimagain thanks for the link.

Ive always thought those OTC drugs can be a real issue…

I can't see this working.

How do we know if we're at the too tired point?

Surely half the country would grind to a halt because people can't drive?

But if it’s entirely based on blood markers and not impairment, how will I know? Honestly I suspect my blood markers would be high. I haven’t had a full nights sleep in 9 years. I’m so used to it though that I never feel horrifically tired, it’s just my normal. So unless I take a blood test before I get in the car, how would I know? The only way to be safe would be to stop driving completely, and therefore giving up my job.

And how do you know that?

Do you have an at home test tu can do to decide?
Do you realise that when you are chronically sleep deprived and tired you don’t notice it anymore, because that’s your normal?

Do tired drivers mainly cause accidents because ...
a) they fall asleep
b) they are awake but unobservant, poorer reflexes

My guess is that the monitoring or blood tests will pick up on high risk of (a).

I have terrible insomnia and "feel" like I could never fall asleep at wheel because I struggle to fall asleep anywhere that's comfy, quiet, low stress. I'm wondering how someone like me would test, because I'm convinced I don't respond to melatonin or whatever chemicals are supposed to make us sleepy like others respond; I suspect I have melatonin resistance or need a higher threshold. So how would the test calibrate for that, I wonder.

(b) can happen to people who are wide awake & not tired at all.

Average number of dog related deaths per year in uk: 3.3 (up to 10 in 2022). Average uk road deaths per year : approx 1500 - 1600. Proportion of road deaths significantly contributed to by fatigue: 16-21%.

Deaths from fatigue and driving are an order of magnitude greater than those caused by dogs.

I got it from my nephew who uses it for exams it's very good, apparently. Though I have yet to use it. Caffeine tablets would do as well.

I understand the problem for officers but thankfully things are changing. I work with officers in a civilian capacity and we’ve recently had a murder with 13 scene guards in place and officers not being allowed to be released from duty and the Sgts and inspectors involved checked in with all the officers regarding their journeys home and ensured that their shifts were put back to ensure that they had the hours between finishing and returning. But I appreciate that isn’t necessarily the case everywhere.

? Something like this?

https://road-safety.transport.ec.europa.eu/statistics-and-analysis/statistics-and-analysis-archive/fatigue/vehicle-detection-and-warning-devices_en

https://speedir.com/driver-fatigue-monitoring-system/

I think (as has been mentioned upthread) a bit of care needs to be taken by everybody concerned, including the police etc, in discriminating between being "tired" verses being tired to the point of being "fatigued and dangerous."

Most industries where fatigue and operation of machinery is already regulated do have define the difference between the two conditions, though the definitions are sometimes subject to heated debate.

I work shifts and am tired a lot of the time. I try to be suitably rested but after menopause, sleep and I are no longer friends.

When my alarm goes off for work at 2am, I'm tired. When I finish a night shift at 7am, I'm tired. I'd expect most people are.

I've tried everything to get better sleep. Even Zopiclone doesn't help me these days. Melatonin will get me to sleep, but doesn't keep me asleep for long. And I still wake multiple times.

Feeling tired is just every day life really. Although I'm lucky and I mostly don't drive to and from work.

Same here. I have insomnia and can barely sleep in my own bed, let alone anywhere else. I’ve never fallen asleep anywhere except my bed, in optimum sleeping conditions!

Deaths caused by Dogs average 3.3 per year ( though there were 10 in 2022)
deaths caused by fatigued drivers about 300 ( about 16% of fatal crashes) so toughly 90 times more

I worked as a rep once and we actually got trained on not driving when tired due to the very real threat of corporate manslaughter apparently if we died at the wheel on a long journey with the incorrect timings.

Didn't stop them calling us to head office at 8am regularly of course.

That's more like it. Some numbers.

So why aren't they targeting the 84% of road deaths not caused by tiredness ? Seems a case of wanting to climb Ben Nevis before you've conquered the local climbing wall then ?