Prosecuted for driving while tired?

[echt]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/may/08/blood-test-for-sleepy-drivers-could-pave-way-for-prosecutions
and
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/may/08/experts-divided-on-ethics-of-testing-and-punishing-tired-drivers

This is at the research stage, but tests are being investigated that will pick up the blood markers showing that a person is too tired to drive.
What do you think of it? My immediate thought was of current drink/drug testing in Australia where drivers are pulled over routinely for testing at random.

I can't see how this could ever come in. For starters it would mean taking almost all emergency service drivers off the road between about 3 and 6 am as most humans will be too tired to drive at that time of day.

If it raises awareness of problems and leads to a better society then great - peoples lives are ruined by tired drivers, children's lives are cut short by excessive traffic and inactivity / unhealthy lifestyles supported by car use is costing the NHS more than 20% of its budget

If it helps in prosecutions ( since the markers not affected by stress ) it might bring some solace to the victims families , it's less good and useful, but since the government values GDP over life ..

How would this work for people who drive for a living? We have split shifts, start at 04 30am ( which means getting up at 03 30am) finish at 5pm.

Imagine ringing in, can't come in boss, too tired. If you took tiredness into account, there would be no buses on the road, it's a running joke in the industry.

Oh for fuck's sake, you are being stupid on purpose. Keep your shitty litter-filled traffic-clogged little island then.

Long, potentially disruptive, potentially unpredictable shifts don’t just happen in the caring professions.

It happens a lot in a least one notoriously male dominated industries.

Or sack workers who don't get enough sleep.

I disagree. Stuff is further away than it used to be! My school was within walking distance, so was my parents jobs. Now there are no jobs in the village and we commute 30-40 minutes, it’s not walkable. We live in a new estate because houses in the original village cost too much now, so school is a 15 min round trip in the car but an hour and a half if we walked. It’s not dependency on cars, it’s stuff being further away that’s the problem.

We need to create a culture where having a driving licence is nearer to a privilege rather than something more akin to a human right. Prosecutions for tiredness would be well down the list of things I would do. For starters, regular eye tests at all ages, drug tests before you even get a provisional licence, renewal with at least theory testing at regular intervals, and no self-assessment of your ability at 70. No exceptions for driving bans because of alleged hardship.

If it happened, I hope it would reduce some of the people who drive short distances, such as those who cannot be bothered to walk with their children to and from school.

It would need much more police resources. I'd start by allowing random drink and drug testing.

Perhaps we could stop short of prosecuting people, but use these tools (stopping and testing people, and telling them if their markers are looking bad) as a way of raising awareness and getting people to change habits voluntarily....where possible. I know everyone here is looking at hard cases and I get that those exist in some cases, but there is also a lot of drowsy driving that is happening due to poor habits that can be changed, especially late-night phone addiction and the like.

Yes. I’d be out pretty quickly due to my autistic child who doesn’t sleep.

While I agree that tired drivers shouldn't drive .... what exactly is the alternative? Sleep in the office? Let the daycare workers take the kids home?

Or those who have health problems affecting their sleep.

It’s not dependency on cars, it’s stuff being further away that’s the problem.

That's pretty much what car dependence means, though. When urban planners talk about reducing car dependency, they are usually talking about changing urban planning so that you get more people living more densely, not "let's keep our cities and towns looking exactly the same but just tell everybody to do take three buses in lieu of each car journey they are currently doing."

As much as it's a noble idea given the number of deaths from falling asleep at the wheel, I do wonder about the ramifications.
You can avoid drinking alcohol but you can’t avoid being tired. Am I suppose to keep my DC off school because I had a bad night and got no sleep? Or not drive to my elderly gran’s house to deliver her food because the baby kept me up all night? The country will grind to a halt if people have to stay at home when they’re tired.

I think all workplaces should have a sleep room and have a sleep break. Much better for productivity too.

Ok, so I've just decided to look up this and see what I could find.

I found this Finnish study which says the following:

The main finding regarding risk factors and risk groups is that during the summer months, especially in the afternoon, the risk of falling asleep while driving is increased. Furthermore, the results indicate that those with a higher risk of falling asleep while driving are men in general, but especially young male drivers including military conscripts and the elderly during the afternoon hours and the summer in particular; professional drivers breaking the rules about duty and rest hours; and drivers with a tendency to fall asleep easily.

^www.researchgate.net/publication/47931281_Fatigued_driving_prevalence_risk_factors_and_groups_and_the_law^

Now, it's one study.

I'd be dead interested to know more about the UK stats from that. And how the measurements of tiredness are comparing to the UK accident rate.

I am curious to know how highly women are scoring as tired compared to men. And whether this directly correlates to rates of accidents.

Cos we know women do have different levels of stamina to men. .

The Finnish study above definitely shows that men are more likely to have fatigue related accidents.

I think I would like to investigate and crack down on the why before looking to roll out more prosecutions for driving whilst tired.

As I say I think women are probably more likely to get the shitty end of the stick on this otherwise.

I'd be interested to see how people show after an accident though. I'd expect an accident to release a huge amount of adrenalin and then potentially shock. All of which I'd expect to skew 'fatigue' markers.

I can't see how this can work, as others have said if you're tested on a marker you can't see yourself/test at home, you might be completely oblivious. I have CFS (but very mild now) and have done since I was 14. I have absolutely no idea how my fatigue measures up against anyone else. I can function well on very minimal sleep (4 hours is pretty normal) after years of disturbed sleep because I'm so used to being tired all the time
If my DH has one night of less than 6 hours, he's completely useless until he can catch up.
If you drink a couple of red bulls to perk you up does that actually improve your markers, or just mask it? What about when you come down from the caffeine high?
Not to mention work, imagine having staff calling up every day to say they'd had a disturbed night and therefore couldn't drive to work. Or the days where you feel fine and then end up in a 2hour intense meeting at the end of the day and by the time you leave to go home you're just drained. Suddenly workplaces need to allocate spaces for beds for people to sleep before they drive home. And nurseries to keep kids indefinitely until a parent is refreshed enough to come and pick them up....

I’m wondering how they are going to then argue that it’s ok for doctors to work the hours they are currently doing. I mean they already are tte profession that pays the higher rates of insurance because they have more accidents.
If the effect if lack of sleep is the same as alcohol, are those doctors safe to practice?
What about shift workers driving back home or very simply working? Like MW being on nights, people on assembly lines etc….

And then you have the people who need very little sleep. How will their ‘biomarkers’ reflect that?
Those on medication that makes you sleepy
Those who are ill and it’s affecting their sleep patterns

I suspect they are a very long way to have anything like this in place fir the general public.

I doubt that would make any difference to the monitor or give me any exemptions

need to create a culture where having a driving licence is nearer to a privilege rather than something more akin to a human right.
Then they need to stop closing local services and create more local jobs and shops etc. It’s no good telling people they can’t drive if the local bank has been closed and the nearest one is now 30 minutes away. Or the local greengrocer has closed and you need to drive to the big Tesco. And closing small local businesses means everyone has to commute to work too. If driving is going to be essential then it needs to be universally available to all, not a privilege.

I feel like people agreeing with this aren't on call or don't have young children lol.
My husband is on call and deals with patients so call outs happen frequently in the night, some can't wait due to equipment malfunctioning that literally keeps people alive.
If he gets pulled over for being too tired what happens to them? They don't have staff on site to deal with these issues.
We get woken up in the early hours by our child, so if he can't drive to work because he's too tired, how do parents with kids get to work?
Again I'm chronically tired, always have been so would I just be banned from driving?
This is another way to get money off people nothing more.

I know in one industry automated monitoring eyesight movement is being looked at as a real time indicator of fatigue and I’ve heard talk that at a basic level the required technology is making it’s way into cars.

Paper on the subject here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3899367/

FWIW fatigue management/control has been a major area of study for many because of the implications for many working of the transport industry.

The medics usually make a big deal and are usually very careful to differentiate between “tired” ( which to to paraphrase is the result of being slightly short of sleep or having one or two disrupted night) and:

“fatigue” which is being utterly Christmas crackered due to an accumulation of disruptive/extended shifts and a cumulative loss of sleep over a long period.

HTH.

You clearly haven't got the memo about the modern UK.

The examples you list will be exempted as "good" tiredness. So totally OK. Not like that "nasty" tiredness we need to tackle.

(See also: "bad" drugs and "good" alcohol).

This was my thought too. I'd include the Police themselves in this, I imagine they would be quite tired after a 12hour night shift.

Its a privilege - suggests a level of choice - which isn't always available with fatigue. With alcohol and drugs there is always a choice.

I'm willing to be on a socio economic thing here too with shift worker being more likely to be poorer and have fewer employment opportunities. Then you have the rural v urban split. Then women with caring responsibilities. People with disabled or SEN kids. People with health problems which may affect sleep. Menopausal women. They may not have the money to 'stop for a coffee'.

All not choices. But circumstances which can't be changed.

As someone with poor sleep for a number of reasons, I don't choose to be tired. I still have to do certain things. I don't drink caffeine. I try and avoid driving whilst tired, but the world can't just stop and it's nonsense to suggest that people working shift should somehow 'check their privilege' and not drive whilst tired when you generally only work shifts out of necessity or duty and don't have a choice about it.