Prosecuted for driving while tired?

[echt]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/may/08/blood-test-for-sleepy-drivers-could-pave-way-for-prosecutions
and
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/may/08/experts-divided-on-ethics-of-testing-and-punishing-tired-drivers

This is at the research stage, but tests are being investigated that will pick up the blood markers showing that a person is too tired to drive.
What do you think of it? My immediate thought was of current drink/drug testing in Australia where drivers are pulled over routinely for testing at random.

It's not clear how tired is too tired?

I used to work away and get up at 5am to drive 3 hours every Monday. I used to feel tired on getting up, but this was after 7 hours sleep so never felt I was tired enough to be impaired.

Is someone who routinely sleeps 5 hours a night and feels fine going to measure worse than someone who sleeps 8 hours and feels tired?

I'd worry about normal behaviour, e.g. driving to work after having some sleep but being up at night to tend to a sick child, being against the law versus activities that are obviously negligent, e.g. not having sleep at all in 24 hours and driving.

The article on radio 4 today said it was a long way from usefulness yet.
Interestingly it is being researched in Australia where '(presumably due to long distances) it is a big problem.

Feeling fine means nothing; your reactions will be impaired and you won't be aware. A bit like people who swear they feel fine to drive after a drink or two.

But ultimately that requires hospitals to change - we have a shortage of hospital staff as it is. If they are all expected to change jobs because their job is tiring we won't have any left.

I do agree that driving while tired is bad, and it's important that we push employers to change their practices so people don't have to drive as tired. But I think the unquantifiable nature of "tired" vs "too tired" for the average bod isn't fair to prosecute on.

Well I'd best hand in my licence now then because I am always bloody tired.

But seriously, there is being tired,and being too tired to drive. Amd different people can cope with tiredness differently so I don't know how you can measure it.

They don't need a test for the 1 in 10 drivers on their phones (I can see them doing it). It's a pity they can't be taken off the roads now.

@JuneShitfield the impairment to driving is roughly equivalent in drunk and tired driving so you are correct both are equally risky , however because far more people drive tired than drive drunk, tired drivers cause 10 times more deaths. Tiredness is a factor in approx 20% of all crashes.

Yeah I get that, but this is the problem. After I've drunk 3 drinks I might feel totally fine (even though in reality my driving will be impaired) but I won't drive because I've drunk 3 drinks & know i'll be over the limit.

This is different, as how are people going to know they are too tired to drive? If you are really really tired you know, but whats the threshold here? Will you know you are 'over the limit' because there is no external '3 glasses of wine' to measure against?

I was going to say this!

I used to work 3 X 12 hour nightshifts a week so I could look after my children in the day while dh worked.

I had a 45 min drive each way on top. Thank God for red bull.

Is that confirmed to be happening? I have chronic fatigue syndrome and I wouldn’t be able to leave my house if I couldn’t drive😬

They'll have to start with their own officers. I used to punch my leg frequently to try to stay awake at the wheel after 18+hrs on duty. It's fucking dangerous and will likely be treated much like drink driving.

Well yes, this as well.

My eldest is a police officer. A few times now he’s called me for a lift as he’s been far too tied to ride his motorbike home after a shift that has been prolonged, he knew he would be in a dangerous position if he drove.

Very good point. If I want to avoid drink driving, I simply dont drink at all. That way, I know for sure I cant possibly be over the limit. How does that work for tiredness though? Obviously, if I've had one hour's sleep I know I'll be exhausted and too tired to function properly but there are days when I go to bed early and still wake up not having slept that great (eg waking up multiple times due to anxiety etc) There is no way for people to accurately assess how tired is too tired is there? If there is no accurate way for people to assess their own tiredness level then from a legal perspective, I dont see how you can prosecute them. Its not like alcohol where you can definitively say yes, I have been drinking or No, I have not.

Yes they do. They can all stay at home because they're too tired to go to work. Good luck with that

FWIW the Selby train crash (mentioned by @QuintanaRoo upthread) caused a few policy changes at our place of work.

The nature of the job meant a lot of long overnight shifts which sometimes ended up being extended on the day (or more likely the night). Up until Selby nobody in management was interested about the post shift drive home, no matter how long or how extended your shift had been.

Post Selby -the management view became one of:

if you worked your rostered shift you were assumed to be fit to drive or had made arrangements to be so.

If your shift had become extended then management would arrange for accommodation close to the place of work to ensure you were rested before driving home.

The company didn’t want the fallout (legally or in PR terms) of being seen as having contributed to a major RTA.

We all have a choice. We decide to play the game, because we think the consequences of not playing are worse than going along with the status quo, but the choice is there.

I still think those figures are a bit fag packet! According to gov.uk alcohol is a factor in 13% of road fatalities. So I still think it’s roughly the same. More people might drive tired, but that doesn’t automatically equate to 10x more fatalities.

From gov.uk:

The final central estimate of the number of deaths in accidents with at least 1 driver over the alcohol limit for 2019 is 230. This represents about 13% of all deaths in reported road accidents in 2019.

It's true though over the years my most dangerous times have been driving whilst tired. I try to avoid it like the plague now but have under my seat sugar energy drinks and a couple of tabs of Modafinil in my glove box just in case for an emergency.

And stay at work, leaving their children on their own.

I’d never be able to drive again, from being pregnant, child rearing and then menopause

I changed my job when my DC's were tiny so I could walk to work. Turned out to be a wise move when my youngest didn't sleep for eight years.

I suspect that it will be very difficult for individuals to know whether they are just tired or too tired to drive.

I think this kind of thing would be fine. IF every driver had the possibility to measure their own level of tiredness before getting into a car.

And yet you made the decision to still drive. There’s always an alternative, you might not like it or it may be inconvenient but the decision to drive when you’re having to punch your leg to stay awake, as you said yourself - it’s fucking dangerous.

Presumably if you’re in the uk you have notified the DVLA.

There seems to be more and more effort to get people out of their cars doesn’t there ?