Prosecuted for driving while tired?

[echt]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/may/08/blood-test-for-sleepy-drivers-could-pave-way-for-prosecutions
and
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/may/08/experts-divided-on-ethics-of-testing-and-punishing-tired-drivers

This is at the research stage, but tests are being investigated that will pick up the blood markers showing that a person is too tired to drive.
What do you think of it? My immediate thought was of current drink/drug testing in Australia where drivers are pulled over routinely for testing at random.

I'd love to see a study of how many police officers would be considered fit to drive in the early hours. I'd imagine not many. Let alone to drive at speed responding to emergencies.

Yeah. I don't sleep well or much, I'd say my ability to function well ( along with shift workers etc) is FAR greater than most peoples with the same 'markers'. People I know are always saying they couldn't function on the sleep I get & don't know how I do. I don't know either, I assume my body has just got used to it. It's shit, I never feel 'full of energy' but I'm fine driving. I don't have or cause accidents.

someone who normally gets plenty of sleep, then has a bad night, might have lower markers but I would bet they're more risky on the road.

Bearing in mind the law will be framed that no impairment needs to be shown. So you could look, feel and drive 100% OK, but if your test comes back bad that's it for you matey.

Surely though one of the main causes of feeling tired at the wheel has nothing to do with how much sleep you’ve had. Eat a big meal full of carbs and sugar leads to blood sugar rise followed by a crash which leaves you sleepy. I feel most tired when driving on a Sunday afternoon after a big meal. When I drove to work during a period when I had insomnia or when DS was little I didn’t feel tired at all.
this would be very discriminatory to women though (children and peri/ menopause) although it could actually be men who crash more due to tiredness (big meals, often the main driver).

it would lead to more tiredness I think as it would increase insomnia due to worrying about getting enough sleep to drive the next day

Murder is still a capital crime in some countries ...

this would be very discriminatory to women though

Well the current system of a one-size-fits all threshold for alcohol (or any other substance) is similarly discriminatory. Don't expect any common sense or logicality when it comes to the law.

You still have choices associated with drink though that may not be possible with fatigue.

😄😄😄

Greater than 99% accuracy 😂.

Well who knows….I mean 99% of the world fell for the whole fraudulent PCR Test for the past 3 years so why wouldn’t everyone hail in another dodgy sounding test?!

So does that mean that factories, workshops, restaurants, garages etc are all going to be testing their staff too - for over tiredness in using the equipment/machinery….every single time they come into work? 🤔

No they don't.

It's up to the employee to either be suitably rested or to get public transport.

I have an autistic child who doesn’t sleep. I am never ‘suitably rested’. I live semi rurally in an area with poor public transport as that’s where my support network is for the autistic child. It would just mean me giving up my job.

I wish I knew the answer. Holding a driving license and the need to get home or collect a child doesn’t admonish the driver of all personal responsibility. We all have a choice and as I previously said regarding the alternative we might not like it or it may be inconvenient but it exists. Selfishly I need to know what I can do if this situation arises for myself and the staff I oversee it’s not for me to offer a solution to everyone.

Can everyone not see how ridiculous this is - I mean totally not practical in any sense at all? 😂
It will never happen.

100%. If knowing whether you’re tired is irrelevant, how would you know when not to drive? I am so used to feeling tired that I don’t feel it anymore. I bet my markers are high. So how would someone make the decision to not drive?

I would be curious to know the statistics behind this too. We are surrounded by lots of problems that desperately "need something doing". And whilst it would be admirable - and understandable - to try to save lives, there comes a point at which

lives saved
----
money spent

really isn't worth talking about. At which point you have to accept there are other - possibly less immediately apparent - motivations at play.

As posters on this thread have - quite correctly - noticed, this proposal has the opportunity to be implemented to disproportionately affect certain sections of society. And absent the figures I inquired after previously, it's hard not to conclude this is the actual intent.

Because (thread convergence) if you really wanted to save lives and injuries you would ban dogs long before you pissed around looking for snoozy drivers.

Well yes, but as it currently stands, the alternative is loosing your job or having the police called when you fail to pick up the kids. I understand why people drive tired. It's not just inconvenient - for many people, there are no other options. Back when I was doing shift work, I looked and looked.

Well you need to make it well, as impairment won't need to be proved. Although currently, you can be prosecuted if impaired through lack of sleep (again, funny we "need" a new law ?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selby_rail_crash

I have a 30 minute drive to work - by public transport it would take approximately 1h 45m each way. Added to that, the nearest bus stop is around a 15 minute walk away which with my physical issues would take me nearer half an hour. By the time I got to work I would be very tired, let alone having to repeat the journey coming home but as it is I arrive feeling fresh and ready for the day - having uplifting music on and able to control air flow and temperature in the car can really affect any tiredness I may feel.

If I were working shifts at the same place, there would be zero public transport in the small hours. There is no way I could afford a taxi for the journey even when it's not unsociable hours, which tend to cost more.

These are similar commutes for many of our critical services workers; not just nurses and doctors but the admin staff at hospitals, the public transport drivers getting them in, the on call engineers who need to fix critical equipment (imagine trying to get public transport at 3am to fix someone's life dependent equipment!), manufacturing workers, bakers.....

As pp have said, living today has become dependent around road transport including cars, vans etc. We can't go back to the days when everything was just in one small area, and TBH I'm sure if they thought about it people would realise that the inconveniences wouldn't be worth it e.g. less availability of items, higher prices, few or no deliveries, thousands of tiny cottage hospitals would be unable to deal with much more than minor injuries, loss of the economies of scale from centralised manufacturing....

@SerendipityJane You're right and I think it's unlikely to end up significantly legislated against. Courts are famously unwilling to consider untested new scientific approaches too.

What's more likely is that this research is used to 'nudge' behaviour — so beefed-up public information campaigns, and the introduction of in-car tech. Maybe campaigns to improve the working conditions of certain industries, such as care workers, emergency services, couriers and lorry drivers.

Courts are famously unwilling to consider untested new scientific approaches too.

That's if they get the choice. Strict liability laws like this don't need a court for verdict. Only sentencing.

Statistical proof on the dog statement, please. Serious dog bites are vanishingly rare. Overall, once you take into account the way dogs encourage exercise and decrease loneliness, I suspect that the health outcomes of dogs is a net benefit.

Statistical proof on the dog statement, please.

After the proof of accidents from driving tired

Inconvenience isn't how a Sgt or Insp would look at it. It would have been cause for disciplinary action against me. I was driving on the motorway at 4am with the windows down, music up and trying desperately to get home in one piece. I'd been awake since 0600 the previous fast, worked a full shift, gone home for an hour and been called back in for a murder on the other side of the county. I was then back on duty again at 2pm after 5hrs. It's insane and is partly why I left - through absolute burn out!

Like others have described, driving while tired is not always a true choice. Who would opt to drive while exhausted if reasonable alternatives were available?

I’m so permanently knackered I’d apply for PIP never mind universal credit 😆

I looked up the stats. There are far less fatal dog accidents than fatigue related driving deaths.