Why has there not been an uprising against the Tories?

[RosieLeaLovesTea]

Inspired why the what is really going. On in our schools, well Laura …. Thread

why has there not been an uprising against the story government?

the things going on in schools, the level of SEND needs and teachers leaving in droves.

the state of the NHS - staff overwhelmed and completely demoralised. It’s on its knees.

strikes across many public sector services for decent pay due to inflation and cost of living.

their Austerity policy has destroyed public services.

I work in social services and I see it every day. And several u turns on policy for social care - the cap on care costs, the reversal of the NI increase which was meant to provide funding for NHS and social care.

lied to about their behaviour during covid.

it just goes on

surely the whole of the UK needs a wake up call and needs to do something…

They do conflate because the mixed messages they send to the children we teach. You can't take time off school when you need, but we can when we need. But that's my value system. Other people can and do feel different. You can experience the same things and come to different political conclusions.

If nurses didn't think striking was more important than people dying they wouldn't be striking. To me it is that simple. I couldn't take any action that meant people directly died because of my choices.

The points may not conflate to you, but that's the point. People have differing views. Calling people unintelligent will not further your political position.

Neither nursing nor teaching are inherently poorly paid. But housing and power are significantly overpriced. There's no point raising wages if actually you don't tackle the fundamental problems driving inflation. You're simply going to need more wage rises next year and the year after. Neither political party has had any successful dealing with either housing or power production.

From what I've seen CAMHs do an awful lot of pontificating and not a lot of actual treatment. If they treated efficiently at the start, they wouldn't waste so many appointments. I have never had a referral going through effectively, every referral I have seen has required at least 2-3 hours wasted NHS admin hours. If GPs and dentists could simply book the service they are making the referral for patients would know how long they have to wait and there would be no chasing and rechasing referrals. I haven't dealt with a service that hasn't at some point berating me for failing to turn up to an appointment they hadn't ever notified me about. Ive had services fail to recognise that they have failed to effectively medically screen patients that were referred to them to the point they actually would put the patient at high risk of death had they continued the appointment they had booked. The patients treatment was then delayed for an additional 6 months while the appropriate clinic was found, and the treatment took over 6 months as opposed to the 2 appointments originally reqired. Kids with autism need a fairly routine list of interventions, if we had a physio and OT that run these in school on a whole school/class basis we wouldn't need so many individual appointments/referrals, also many problems would be picked up before they were problems. If all desks in schools were designed with sloped tops all children would benefit from a better writing position. If we incorporated pilates into school instead of PE a number of physio referrals could be avoided. There is just so so much waste in the NHS.

With regard to both nursing and education we need significantly improved facilitates for dealing with mental health/asd/adhd. Many many teaching hours are lost because of inadequate management of ADHD/SN in the classroom. Camhs and Ed psych need to be in schools dealing proactively, the fact they are not is causing just so much waste. Nurses generally have no sodding clue how to deal with mental health within a healthcare setting, if I've seen one person dealt with empathically I've seen two occasions where a patient was dealt with nothing short of callous disregard. Things like multi bay wards are so hopelessly outdated.

I could go on.... at present Neither Labour nor Conservative represent my actual politics. But many of my political principles are not routed in the two political parties who values where decided in entirely different eras. I dont think much of capitalism, feel strongly about home ownership, dont believe in open boarders, feel strongly about the merits of the benefits system and am a teacher who fully believes we overeducate our young people who mostly would benefit from being able to work and earn a living.

Previous elections I have spoiled my vote.

I do however have a decent local Conservative mp who is active in SN matters and helped hugely in my dealings with CAMHS and social services. The fact is that whilst elections are run on party politics, I am actually voting for a decent local candidate whose means actually I might just end up voting Conservative anyway. Just another example of how the political system just doesn't work.

I think the Tories are absolute assholes but I agree that the need for mental health/neurodiversity help from the NHS is unprecedented and likely not to be the fault of the Tories but other societal issues and not purely genetics.

I work in an NHS trust area where the decision has been made by the community paediatrics service commissioned to assess Autism have said they will only assess if there are high levels of risk like possible school exclusion, social services involvement with the family or criminal justice involvement with the DC.

Because in the last 2 years there has been a 350% increase for Autism assesment referrals. So the waiting list was getting into 2-3 years.

And all the parents on MN are understandably upset that their not high risk children can't get an assessment on the NHS .

But the NHS will say they a) could not fulfil all of those assessments unless they get a huge influx of staff but also...b) it's understood that ASC has been overlooked in the past for decades but it's been pretty prominent in the public consciousness for the last decade or so at least.

So it's extremely unlikely that there has been a 350% increase in children with ASC in 2 years which perfectly coincides with covid.

And its much more likely that the majority of parents/schools are dealing with covid effects rather than there being a previously hidden epidemic of neurodevelopmental disorders.

But that IS the kind of thing that the NHS is expected to deal with that could not have been anticipated by any government.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

Labour's idea with devolution was, in the words of George Robertson Shadow Secretary Of State For Scotland, meant to "Devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead".

Instead, Labour messed up big time, weakened the Union and strengthened Nationalism. Tony Blair later admitted:

"I did feel that we made a mistake on devolution.

We should have understood that, when you change the system of government so that more power is devolved, you need to have ways of culturally keeping England, Scotland and Wales very much in sync with each other. We needed to work even stronger for a sense of UK national identity."

So, would you REALLY count devolution as one of Labour's successes?!

I wouldn't. It certainly did NOT go the way Labour wanted...did it? No. And devolution was a major part of Blair's Labour's first term manifesto pledges.

A complete failure, unfortunately.

How many things in your list turned out to be significant failures by Labour?

That's the thing whilst I agree with you on some points, I worry about others.

A lot of waste in the NHS is caused by arrogance

So it's extremely unlikely that there has been a 350% increase in children with ASC in 2 years which perfectly coincides with covid.

See this, this worries me. It reminds me of a doctor who about 20 years ago told a friend of mine that her second child couldn't possibly have ASD has it was statistically impossible for a second child in the same family to have it. Now we know its ten times more likely.

My ADHD girl was diagnosed as a result of covid. I had always known she was ADHD but it took covid for me to have the time at home to realise that actually school were talking crap for years. she wasn't coping and actually she may need an adhd diagnosis.

Quite a few children with ASD (diagnosed and undiagnosed) managed fair better outside of school than in and with online learning than in school learning. Suddenly a fair number of people realised there was an better way of living or school was causing the problem and therefore driving the need for a diagnosis.

Correlation does not mean causation. The sheer arrogance of "professionals" to believe they actually couldn't have missed a problem that has been sitting under their noses all along.....

And what a load of idiots deciding to only deal when a child hits crisis point. The costs involved long term both on a financial and individual basis will be extraordinary and absolutely examples of the kind or ridiculous waste in our country's services that needs dealing with politically

We'll surely people vote for parties based on what affects and meets their OWN needs.

*well

35. Banned fox hunting.

Blair said it was “one of the domestic legislative measures I most regret” and that it was a "rash undertaking”. After speaking to someone involved in fox hunting, Blair changed his mind. His comments here:

"It was banned in such a way that, provided certain steps are taken to avoid cruelty when the fox is killed, it isn't banned...It was the best I could do, but not an episode of policymaking I look back on with pride. And I should think not, I hear you say."

Looks to me like you simply grabbed that list from somewhere, didn't check ANY of it and posted it as examples of Labour's successes....

Badbudgeter · Yesterday 15:19
What would an uprising actually constitute?

I’d like to know the answer to this. One poster on this thread has said we need poll tax riots, another has said she’d prefer riots to apathy.
There are probably plenty of others who agree why aren’t they starting riots?
Smash a few windows, ruin businesses, steal and pillage, burn down properties ……

Fox hunting isn't banned. Killing foxes with a pack of hounds is banned.

@MrsSkylerWhite i would have thought the difference was obvious? I’m paying, will enter the county legally, will have means to support myself and the right to work. I don’t recall where I said it was ok for me to move and others aren’t allowed to come here - there should be far more legal and safe routes for people to come here which would then allow us to know who is coming. And we should have programmes (like the Afghan and Ukraine) where we bring people over - I’m obviously in a financial situation that I expect many fleeing war and persecution are not. Not no immigration, controlled immigration - I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. But again neither party will address this problem because they are too scared of it - a bit like the nhs and the reform needed there.

The Hunting Act came into force in 2004, there have been prosecutions under the act and appeals against it have failed. Tony Blair might not consider it his proudest moment but that thought is obviously not universal.

No, you're right, I haven't thoroughly investigated every item on the list, but then this is an opinion board not a dissertation.

That is beautiful.
Well, as far as cut and paste goes, anyway.

Defo worth all those Iraqi and armed forces lives, I'm sure. But what do they matter, eh?
(As I know MN is a little clouded with regards to nuance, I'll be clear - that was Sarcasm)

This

@MandyMotherOfBrian Only TWO (2) Conservative MPs voted against the invasion of Iraq.

Well, if you're going to argue a case you'd better make sure you know enough about that list!

That's four things I was able to put clear, correct context to straightaway. Lists like that suggest lazy thinking, really.

Labour's devolution plans has been a failure and Northern Ireland's in particular cannot be described as a Labour achievement alone since the process began long before...it just so happened that PSF/PIRA was severely weakened enough by the past Conservative Government's security efforts to get there.

Conservatives had already done a referendum in Scotland in 1979, but the turn out was so low it was invalid.

These things aren't Government successes, especially when it did the exact opposite of what the Government wanted. In this case, Labour. 🤦‍♂️

DownNative
I have argued the case on the Hunting Act.

Your ability to add your negative opinions on four of the points on a 50 point list does not make the list invalid. If we take your four points off, the list is still 46 points long.

I'm not saying Labour are perfect. I'm not saying what Labour did whilst last in government was 100% perfect. I am saying that it is possible to quote a list of successes and positive actions. I can't imagine many people have researched and understood every nuance of every point on the list. I certainly haven't.

I would be really interested to see a 50 point list (even if some of those points are questionable) of actions taken with the intention of benefiting the majority by the Conservative party since they last came to power 13 years ago.

It is not a requirement of Mumsnet posts that one has to have researched and understood every single element of every single thing they post up.

MintJulia · Yesterday 13:11

The difference surely is that one adheres to the laws of the destination country (applies for visa through the appropriate route and meets the criteria for settlement or accepts rejection if necessary)”

Please explain what the appropriate legal routes are for citizens of Syria, Eritrea and Afghanistan.

Erm…..the French were rioting regarding the proposed increase pension age?? It was passed in law a week or so ago by a government that they elected in last year? So what exactly was the point/outcome of the riots?

The point stands though that if I can both strike down AND contextualise four points straightaway.....what might happen with many of the other points?

Lists such as yours blatantly ignore the legislative realities. Indeed, Labour's fox hunting ban was easily shown by Blair to have been a complete mess.

This is how arguments are undermined and many would suggest neither set of government particularly cares about the people. Just themselves.

If the Hunting Act was such a mess then why have the Tories done absolutely nothing about it in 13 years?

The list refers to tens of quantifiable instances of the Labour party caring about and improving the life of ordinary people. There will be context and legislative realities whatever the policy/action and there will always be those who will seek to strike down arguments.

That doesn't detract from the fact that the cumulative effect of these policies and our lived experience of being subject to them show were there a great many steps forward for the common good during that period.

A similar list for the Conservatives doesn't seem to be forthcoming.

They did try to allow fox hunting again, that was their attempt at sorting it out

Which was nice of them. They soon dropped that plan when they realised how many voters wanted it to remain illegal.

And the above is called Shifting The Goalposts which is a logical fallacy aka error in reasoning.

It's YOUR argument that every single thing on your own list were ALL examples of Labour's successes.

After all, why else did you post them?

Straight from Blair's mouth we have an admission his Government made a big mistake with the fox hunting legislation. He tried to water it down to the point where hunts could still go ahead as he explained - a banned, but not banned situation. Yet you held it up as an example of Labour success(!)

You did the same thing with devolution too(!)

Own your own error instead of attempting to shift the goalposts and deflecting away from it.

Thank god. I cannot imagine a worse way to go. Literally hounded to your death. Petrifying

Blair's opinon is not the only measure of success.

Blimey DownNative. My error? How funny. The list is not mine it's in the public domain. You can Google it.

This is chit chat on Mumsnet, not the Oxford Union.